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 golem vs invis

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CHIEFHERO[SKS]

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PostSubject: golem vs invis   Sun Feb 05, 2012 7:22 pm

the golem and the invis are fundamentally the same. you spend cash to try and get some fast kills instead of playing the ''safe long-term strategy'' and investing in claws.

all the arguments against invis can be applied to the golem. they both contribute to the ''2-20'' problem which drew/shoop are so obsessed about, they both put less pressure on the sheep(gold being spend on stuff other than claws = less isolation power), and so on. the arguments apply in different degrees to the two items, but they do apply.

the only difference between the invis and the golem is that there is no way to avoid a good invis in the current map. NOBODY wants to remove the golem because good players can get kills with it, and good players can avoid being killed by golems. it adds FUN because a player can do something alone(get kills/dodge and make wolfs waste golems). invis also adds FUN for the same reasons IF we implement a good counter to it.



its really weird how some people want the invis removed but they are obsessed with keeping the golem. they are the same. when shoop/others start babbling about removing invis, you have to automatically assume that
1) they want golems removed as well
or
2) they are insane

unless you want the golem removed, do not argue for removing the invis. argue for CHANGING the gameplay around it so that it fits better in the map.
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PostSubject: Re: golem vs invis   Mon Feb 06, 2012 12:25 am

golems can be used even if you have onehit and help you hold your lane, invis can't
probably you go for an early golem, because you never learned how to use them properly.

with your logic same goes with any item that supports cheesy kills, such as the strength pot, not correctly used people might want to get a kill by killing a farm while the sheep is running behind it instead of creating a fast isolation.

but yee, I can see some analogies
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CHIEFHERO[SKS]

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PostSubject: Re: golem vs invis   Mon Feb 06, 2012 12:53 am

Quote :
with your logic same goes with any item that supports cheesy kills, such as the strength pot, not correctly used people might want to get a kill by killing a farm while the sheep is running behind it instead of creating a fast isolation.

exactly. this is my logic and that is what im trying to say. remove invis = remove golems/str/blabla.

u can help cut farms if u get golems, and u can hold entire sides with invis. whats de pointo? invis is most likely an even better investment than golems. the point is that u postpone the claws in order to get other items which help you get ''cheesy kills'' fast. to simplify and exaggerate it, either you get a kill with golem/invis the first 2 minutes, or u don't get a kill and u have no chance lategame because u didnt invest in claws. 2-20 problem.
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PostSubject: Re: golem vs invis   Mon Feb 06, 2012 1:21 am

CHIEFHERO[SKS] wrote:
the point is that u postpone the claws in order to get other items

The problem is that golem/str can be used the same time when using claws, while invis can't.
So it makes sense to get claws and then golem/str while it's wasted gold to get claws and then get invis.
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PostSubject: Re: golem vs invis   Mon Feb 06, 2012 2:28 am

if we assume that cutting is the most important thing(you cant cut while you're invis), getting golem before everyone on the team has 1hit = waste. besides, it can be much more rewarding when one invis covers and entire side and makes it hard to expand than if you have an extra cutter. this is besides the point tho.

obviously u won't buy invis after you got 1hitter. the argument some people present against invis is that its a 2-20 case. either u get a kill and u win fast, or u dont get a kill and the game drags on forever. i dont see why u cant apply that argument for the removal of the golem?
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PostSubject: Re: golem vs invis   Mon Feb 06, 2012 2:59 am

Invis is changing the game-flow of sheep tag in a way that I often watch people going "-.-" rather than "Very Happy", golem/str doesn't.
You assumed the 2-20 argument is the only argument against invis. Invis has aspects in the game that golems don't have and therefore I can understand people if they want invis removed.

Personally, I'd rather enjoy a map without invis, too, but I could deal with invis being on the map. Same with golems the other way around.
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PostSubject: Re: golem vs invis   Mon Feb 06, 2012 3:15 am

i dont understand what ur saying.

present an other argument than 2-20 that applies to invis but not to golems. 2-20 applies to golems.

the reason people want invis removed is because they are crazy and narrow-minded. "my shoes got wet in the rain today so i threw them in the trash instead of drying them" Very Happy. there is no way to argue against invis but for golems without using subjective opinion, and there is no reason to remove invis instead of balancing it into the game.
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PostSubject: Re: golem vs invis   Mon Feb 06, 2012 4:22 am

I agree with you that in their current format both lead to the 2-20 problem in the sense that the investments in gold goes out over potential claws etc. But that is not the main reason to remove invis, it is however a great reason to change the way we look at golems.

I have suggested for a long time that we either add golems as an ability or even better make a bigger change of wolves in general where we remove claws/gloves/cloaks etc along with cashfarms and replace it with a system where the wolves always kill farms in 2 hits and upgraded in 3 hits (and maybe the aura adds 1 hit to each of the farms).

By doing that we keep the skillmoment with golems without forcing you to prioritize it over cutting items.

The reason I want invis removed is that the item in itself, when people use it and the threat of invissnipers for sheep, is destructive and makes ST a lot more boring than it has to be.

It is funnier to to play as wolf (except maybe for the person who invissnipes) if you constantly have pressure on the sheep, if you feel that you can make a difference as an individual and dont just run around hoping your allies wont screw up and that your enemies will. If we remove invis we can create this balance and allow a much higher press from the wolves where the sheep got less farms on avarege but still have the same avarege times as now seeing as the threat of invis is gone.

It is funnier to play as sheep when you dont have to worry about invis and therefore can use your abilities to speedmass, runtag and read the game to a much higher extent than now. This is an extremly important point beacause as long as invis is in the game there are TONS of things the sheep simply cant do only beacause of the potential threat from something he have no possible way to predict no matter how good he is. This will allow skilled sheep to dominate by runtag much more than before. This will allow a skilled sheep to expand much faster than before. This will allow a skilled sheep to read and predict everything on the map he can see.

But it is not only that, it is, as I was talking about in the wolfsection also about a whole new possibility to create balance in sheep tag. As long as invis is around we have to keep the balance in a certain way only beacause if the pressure on the sheep goes to a level where you are forced to speedmass at your best or runtag to get out of situations invissniping will kill you no matter how good you are. If we remove invis we can finally get rid of this ridicilus balance we are more or less forced to have where the sheep do best in safemassing slowly, cornermassing and building banks. This is not what I want in sheep tag and I am convinced most other people would also a appriciate a game with higher pace, more pressure and bigger oppurtunities to get out of tight chances as an individual.

In the end this will lead to a game where you as a wolf will be able to get so much more out of your skills as imageuser, your positioning, your 1on1 skills, your ability to hunt a sheep and so on.

In the end this will lead to a game where you as a sheep will get so much more out of your skills as a speedmasser, a runtagger and your ability to read and predict the game. Your farmpositioning, your reactions and your ability to spend gold wiseley.

Please understand I am not saying these skills arent important today, they are. But not nearly as much as they could be.

Sometimes less is more, by removing invis we will get so much more value out of so many aspects in sheep tag. If you dont trust me just give me a chance to lead a project with a testmap according to this philosophy and I am convinced everyone will LOVE it once we find the proper balance.

This isnt just a discussion about removing an annoying item, this is a discussion about completley turn around sheep tag from the boring safemass bullshit it turned into and get it back in the direction it used to be before people started using invis and people had a much bigger spectrum to shine as individuals. But it wont stop there, it will get better than it ever was.
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PostSubject: Re: golem vs invis   Mon Feb 06, 2012 4:43 am

shoop i agree, but you are attacking the invis in the current form. i dont think ANYONE wants to keep it as it is. im suggesting a change-over where you can avoid being sniped if you're good at ST. many of your points attack the current invis and not the one im arguing for.

Quote :
if you feel that you can make a difference as an individual and dont just run around hoping your allies wont screw up and that your enemies will.
don't you think that this is the case without items such as invis? with the invis i can win ALONE for the wolfs. without it, im completely dependent on trollpro holding his side. your reasoning is backwards unless i misunderstood you. invis adds individuality, zone-wolfing adds dependence.

Quote :
It is funnier to play as sheep when you dont have to worry about invis and therefore can use your abilities to speedmass, runtag and read the game to a much higher extent than now. This is an extremly important point beacause as long as invis is in the game there are TONS of things the sheep simply cant do only beacause of the potential threat from something he have no possible way to predict no matter how good he is.
i think a good mixture of predicting and adjusting/reacting to the situation is the best. obviously it will be easier to runtag if we just remove the invis. and if thats the only option we have, i would want it removed. but we can rework the entire shit so that runtag becomes easier than it is now for pros, and harder than it is now for noobs. thats what im arguing for. and i don't have a list of perfect changes, im saying IF its possible, THEN invis is a great item in st.

Quote :
If we remove invis we can finally get rid of this ridicilus balance we are more or less forced to have where the sheep do best in safemassing slowly, cornermassing and building banks.
again, this is not the outcome of keeping the invis. we will add counters so that safemassing isnt necessary.

keep in mind that im arguing to keep the invis as a concept, but not in it's current form.




that being said, i would love to test out your ideas where we remove claws etc. and you have some valid points about the invis. there are negatives and positives to the concept, i just think the positives outweight the negative IF we manage to change the map. invis is not good in its current form.
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PostSubject: Re: golem vs invis   Mon Feb 06, 2012 5:01 am

I am attacking the concept of invis. It doesnt matter how you balance or change it. It is the idea of invis I am attacking.

Quote :
don't you think that this is the case without items such as invis? with the invis i can win ALONE for the wolfs. without it, im completely dependent on trollpro holding his side. your reasoning is backwards unless i misunderstood you. invis adds individuality, zone-wolfing adds dependence.

No, we are forced to keep this balance beacause of invis. If it was possible to dominate as an individual wolf without invis it would lead to a state where someone with invis could basicly just chill and wait for free kills. It is simply not possible to buff the wolves nearly as much as long as the potential threat of a invis wolf you have no chance to predict is there. If we remove invis we can change the balance so that you wont have to depend on the other wolves regardless how you play.


Quote :
i think a good mixture of predicting and adjusting/reacting to the situation is the best. obviously it will be easier to runtag if we just remove the invis. and if thats the only option we have, i would want it removed. but we can rework the entire shit so that runtag becomes easier than it is now for pros, and harder than it is now for noobs. thats what im arguing for. and i don't have a list of perfect changes, im saying IF its possible, THEN invis is a great item in st.

I dont. Its not about the invis being too good. Its about the threat of an invis wolf, once its possible to predict everything in the area that you see you will also be able to play in a completley different way. This way of playing is simply not compatible with invis.

Quote :
again, this is not the outcome of keeping the invis. we will add counters so that safemassing isnt necessary.

keep in mind that im arguing to keep the invis as a concept, but not in it's current form.

It doesnt matter what you add, the kind of game I want doesnt work with invis. And I am not arguing against invis in its current form. I am arguing against invis as a concept.

Quote :
that being said, i would love to test out your ideas where we remove claws etc. and you have some valid points about the invis. there are negatives and positives to the concept, i just think the positives outweight the negative IF we manage to change the map. invis is not good in its current form.

I would love to set up the vision for a testmap if Madhatters thinks it sounds like a good idea. But only if we do it the way I described. My vision will be completley destroyed if we dont do it properly.
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PostSubject: Re: golem vs invis   Mon Feb 06, 2012 7:20 am

Not going to read these ridiculously long arguments, but saying invis and golems are alike is like saying basketball and soccer are alike because they are played by humans and use round balls. Golems are extremely rarely used before getting 2 hit in a 5v5 game and can be used with claws, invis is always used before getting 2 hit. Golems can be used to help isolate, camp the middle, hop over farms for kills etc., invis can be used to kill an unsuspecting sheep. They have pretty much nothing in common, except for the fact that they cost gold and therefore a noob wolf can use either of them and thereby hurt the team.

Anyways, what is this "vision for a testmap"?
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PostSubject: Re: golem vs invis   Mon Feb 06, 2012 7:47 am

Lol there is a long list of ideas, but I guess the biggest changes would be to remove invis, claws and cashfarm while making big balancechanges in order to promote higher paced gamed which leaves more room for the individual to shine.

If you are interested in the idea I can make a new topic with a more detailed list?
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PostSubject: Re: golem vs invis   Mon Feb 06, 2012 8:34 am

obviously they are not identical items. ''GOLEM CAN JUMP OVER FARMS AND INVIS CANT". what does it matter if u buy golem before or after getting 2hit? the argument is the same. you buy the golem/invis to get fast kills at the expense of a ''stable long-term'' strategy. investing gold in golems, regardless of whether u have 3hit or 2hit, limits your isolation power. it puts less pressure on the sheep.

20-2 argument applies, ''less pressure/action" applies, ''static and boring games" applies.

read shoops first post and replace invis with golems. most of the arguments are direct arguments against the golem:
1) "its funnier to play wolf with constant pressure on the sheep"
2) "it makes runtag/massing easier"
3) ''In the end this will lead to a game where you as a wolf will be able to get so much more out of your skills as imageuser, your positioning, your 1on1 skills''
4) ''appriciate a game with higher pace, more pressure and bigger oppurtunities to get out of tight chances as an individual.''


and read this argument from shoop
Quote :
In the end this will lead to a game where you as a sheep will get so much more out of your skills as a speedmasser, a runtagger and your ability to read and predict the game. Your farmpositioning, your reactions and your ability to spend gold wiseley.
yeah skills like speedmassing, runtagging, reactions and farmpositioning make a bigger difference between a good player and a bad player when you remove the invis. pure GENIOUS ^^




listen kids. the vast majority of the arguments used against the invis = are directly applicable to the golem. and you are attacking the invis in its current form. the invis has to be placed in a map where there are counters to it. how can shoop possible think hes attacking the concept of the invis and not the current imbalanced invis by saying that it forces safemassing and all that nonsense? what do you think sideys invis-counter ideas are supposed to accomplish? mental patients all over the board.
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PostSubject: Re: golem vs invis   Mon Feb 06, 2012 8:41 am

You missunderstand the point amir. Its about the balance changes we can make do once we remove invis. You cant compare the aspect of how much we have to adjust rest of sheeptag to fit invis into the balancing with golems. Its not even close. The golems add a much appriciated spice to sheeptag, but doesnt strip us of the chance to change the balance in order to make sheep tag high paced and with plenty of room for individual performance.

Anyway, enough chitchat. Once I get to prove my idea everyone will realize I am right. Can you give me a chance Madhatters?
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CHIEFHERO[SKS]

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PostSubject: Re: golem vs invis   Mon Feb 06, 2012 8:46 am

i repeat, just so its clear:

people love the golem and they hate the invis BECAUSE good players can get kills with the golem and good players can dodge golems, while everyone can get kills with invis and not even the best players can dodge a well-timed invis. the item is simply ''misrepresented'' in the current map.

everyone who argues against the invis => directly argues against golems. its impossible to outweight the positives of the invis item without applying non-sense arguments that ALSO apply to golems/str-items/etc. people would laugh at you if you only presented arguments against a balanced invis without using general arguments against skillful items.
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PostSubject: Re: golem vs invis   Tue Feb 07, 2012 7:02 am

And the argument against invis is still that it forces us to change the threat of invis makes sheep tag boring and forces us to make the game slowpaced.
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PostSubject: Re: golem vs invis   Fri Feb 10, 2012 6:56 am

We remove nothing, let the game as it is and everything is fine.
There are only a few people who are against invis because finally they realize that invis isnt OP.

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