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 Beers aftermath

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Chakra



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PostSubject: Re: Beers aftermath   Wed Apr 17, 2013 4:27 am

Are you under the idea that the vast majority, or even a majority, of people quit when stacks were removed? If so, you are very, very wrong. I remember a top of three or so forum posts about people quit. I remember polls that were run while the stack trial was going on in which the majority voted for the removal of stack farms. So even if the vast majority found stacks to be more enjoyable, some didn't, and now they are gone, just as those who dislike stacks.

The truth is, the removal or addition of stacks are only a small portion of the game. As I said, I didn't explicitly quit because of the reintroduction of stacks: the game was already bad. This is probably how most people feel: Sidey would no doubt argue that camping, straight massing/cutting, and other issues also encouraged him and others to play less.

But I concede that the removal of stacks probably led to the outright quitting of more people than the introduction. However, one must question the long term results of both actions.

Did you ask anyone if I've played ReVo with them in the last few months? According to my bot, I've spent 55 minutes, 10 seconds in Beer's ReVo maps (starting December 3rd, 2012 with version 7.2.9B) over the course of nine games, six of which lasted less than a minute, which probably means I was testing them.
Have I ever been known to purposely try to lie or mess with data? Your random accusation of me lying is silly and completely unfounded.

To give comparison, I've played over 2,778 minutes (over 46 hours) of Bulldog since then.
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CHIEFHERO[SKS]

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PostSubject: Re: Beers aftermath   Wed Apr 17, 2013 9:17 am

lying:

1) we're discussing something that you can't be caught lying about(why u quit st). messing with data is something you can be caught lying about.

2) you have good incentive to lie, because:
  • a) you dont play anymore (no benefit from improving the map by being genuine)
    b) you protect your image, reputation and percieved intellect (since you argued for the removal of the stack for years)
    c) saying something like "removal of stacks made me quit" would, in some way, belittle you at this point.
    d) claiming that stacks made you/others quit(despite what the facts point to) enforces that you were right all along. see point b).


3) 1+2 = you have many reasons for lying, you have no reason not to lie. this doesn't mean that you're lying, but taking your word at face value would be really silly.


Stacks:

1) Many people have said that they quit because of removal of stacks. noone have said that the addition made them quit.

2) doesn't have to be a community majority that quit because of the removal of stacks. but the VAST majority who quit because of the something related to the stack, quit because of the removal. a 9 to 1 ratio is a conservative estimate. this is based on what people have said when quitting.

3) this doesn't have to represent reality. perhaps most sheeptaggers in history quit because the stacks made it boring. but NOTHING points towards this. on the contrast, the fact that we have many ''i quit because they removed stacks'' and zero ''i quit because they added stacks" indicates that the choice to remove the stack has had bigger consequenses for us than the addition.

again, this doesn't prove anything, but it's surely an interesting observation, and good food for thought Very Happy lets move on now? i got more fun-facts.
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Chakra



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PostSubject: Re: Beers aftermath   Wed Apr 17, 2013 12:13 pm

Can you show evidence of many people saying they quit because of stacks? Even if we include people who were already on the decline, such as Sidey, not near a dozen come to mind. What is something "related to the stack"? Anti stack shield? Of course no one quits because of the removal of anti stack shield.

I have a question, however. When did you start playing Sheep Tag and when did you become part of the theorycrafting guild? I know for a fact you never took part in the stack debate on forums, so it has to be at least after then. I ask this because you, as well as many others, seem to think the community has shrunken, in terms of sheer numbers, dramatically since Mav's forums, which is just plain silly.
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CHIEFHERO[SKS]

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PostSubject: Re: Beers aftermath   Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:50 pm

unfortunately I dont have bot-logs, and if I did, i wouldn't look through them. But I'm confident that everyone in this community (if they're honest) attest that MUCH more people quit because the stack got removed, than because it got added again. then again, i never used this as an argument for anything. its just a fun-fact. Very Happy

started st 2004. obviously i can't remember when my first theory post was, but im confident that i took part in the first threads by shoop/drew, attemting to remove the stack. not 100% sure.

ye the community is smaller now than during mav-forum-times. why do you think this belief is silly?
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Chakra



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PostSubject: Re: Beers aftermath   Thu Apr 18, 2013 8:42 pm

Alright, just did a little research and you did indeed make a few posts.
For historical reasons, all posts that include the word "stack" (including subject title): http://chatcraft.net/stwc/stack.html
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CHIEFHERO[SKS]

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PostSubject: Re: Beers aftermath   Fri Apr 19, 2013 6:36 pm

Quote :
you can argue that stack makes the game less skillful, and boring, but the fact(as chaise said, which was a great point) is that MOST PEOPLE DON'T WANT THE STACK REMOVED. it's not a matter of ''majority is right'' shoop, its a matter of the majority thinking the item is FUN to play with. and this is actually a good point. i've only seen a few people out of the MANY which play sheeptag who doesn't like the stackfarm.

quote from my first post in the first thread (by drew) to remove stack Very Happy im pretty sure this was a reply to a post shoop made claiming that majority vote doesn't matter, and we shouldn't make decisions based on majority.

i didn't read everything, but as I was pretty sure, i did take part in the theorycrafting.




but what was your point anyway? since you asked me when i started theory.

and whats your point about mav forum? do you seriously question - much less think its IRRATIONAL to believe - that the community is smaller now than in mav-forum days?
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Chakra



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PostSubject: Re: Beers aftermath   Sat Apr 20, 2013 3:28 am

Why'd you stop your quote there? Sad
Prince wrote:
to argue ''it makes it less skillful'' is no different than saying ''lets remove upgraded farm, it makes it easier to play sheep... wolfs must cut DOUBLE as long!!!'' or saying ''lets remove golems.. there is no doubt it makes the game easier for the wolfs!!!''

lets look at a couple of facts:
1. sheeptag SHOULD be fun.
[...]

1: the fact that the majority of players, and the majority of ''pros'' WANT this item to stay speaks for itself. it IS fun. even if it makes you pissy as wolf some times, most people concider the positive aspects of the stack to outwight the negative aspects of it. the item is FUN to have in the game.
http://chatcraft.net/stwc/index.php?topic=1239.msg16250;wap2#16250
Such an argument seems quite familiar. ^^

Because you constantly make references to the old when I don't remember you there.
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