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 Beers aftermath

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TrollPro

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PostSubject: Beers aftermath   Sun Apr 14, 2013 10:48 am

Beers aftermath that i talk about will result in more inactivity and the death of sheeptag itself, peoples though can call me if stacks have been put back into the map, call me if u wanna get rid of this ridiculouss beer, he is the new hitler of sheeptag! Call me if u want alliance.



The new retarded hitler of sheeptag.
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XXXandBEER



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PostSubject: Re: Beers aftermath   Sun Apr 14, 2013 11:14 am

Trollpro the map is open source you dam downy. Anyone can edit it anyone can get a host bot and host a game. Maybe stop blaming others and take initiative yourself. And you say "Call you" but you don't leave a number god you are some downy.

Edit: Also you talk about sheep tag activity as if its active lmao
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Chakra



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PostSubject: Re: Beers aftermath   Sun Apr 14, 2013 11:52 am

Roooofllmmaaaoo. This community so funny.

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the map is open source you dam downy. Anyone can edit it anyone can get a host bot and host a game. Maybe stop blaming others and take initiative yourself.
This will never happen. This community is so lazy and vampiric, I was fairly surprised you started editing the map, but you had already showed an attempt at mapmaking. I don't know if there is anyone else, besides like Shadow or Furry, who aren't noted for their ST.
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CHIEFHERO[SKS]

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PostSubject: Re: Beers aftermath   Sun Apr 14, 2013 1:15 pm

why do you act like victims chakra/beer? the way people post their map-ideas isn't always mature or nice, but everyone is just trying to improve the map. telling people to ''go make your own map'' when they suggest something, or critisize your current map, is really disgusting.

People might just say the reverse to you; go and create your own map, and get your own fan-base. if you're not going to listen to input (and consider ONLY the welfare of this community), invent your own concept instead of taking a map that was already develouped before you/already has a fan-base, and forcing it into your own vision.





mapmakers like to portray an image of altruism, IE ''we're dealing out free chocolate, why do you cry that you didn't get icecream as well!?".... but you're TAKING something we already enjoy, and you're trying to change it. so try to improve it in a direction thats good for the entire community, and not just for yourselves/a few selected friends. listen to peoples ideas and arguments instead of telling people to ''create their own map'', because you know VERY WELL that noone here has any idea how to create a map. nasty attitude. have some sense of responsibility...
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XXXandBEER



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PostSubject: Re: Beers aftermath   Sun Apr 14, 2013 1:44 pm

CHIEFHERO[SKS] wrote:
listen to peoples ideas

Going to break this down word for word
Listen - To trollpro throw out flames and QQ about pointless shit
Peoples - The whole 5 sheep taggers that play
Ideas - No one has come up with any ideas other then myself pls link me a thread with someone other than myself's ideas.
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Chakra



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PostSubject: Re: Beers aftermath   Sun Apr 14, 2013 2:17 pm

Guess Amir doesn't understand the concept of a "common property resource."

Still sickening Amir thinks "suggesting" something gives you any right to it. If some homeless kid walked up to a construction project and said, "That roof is ugly, make it purple" and they do so, it doesn't mean he now owns part of the building.

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People might just say the reverse to you; go and create your own map
Isn't that what Beer is doing? It's not like him updating the map made ReVo 7.1.0 unplayable. Hell, Beer doesn't even protect his maps - grab the most recently version you like and there you go. It's not like he immutably changes it (hey! that's part of being a common property!).

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forcing it into your own vision.
How is anyone forcing you to play a map?

I can't tell if you are simply trolling. It is a basic principle of market economies and the main reason why everyone hates copyrights that last 115 years: if you make something open to edit, then many people can make their own versions, and the market will follow the versions they like best. That does not mean the market can dictate producers what to do.

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but you're TAKING something we already enjoy, and you're trying to change it.
We're creating a copy and changing the copy. The original still exists in its pure form. You clearly don't understand how public licenses work if you believe that someone cloning and modifying a public project on their own is beholden to the original community. I suggest you take a few engineering classes if this is indeed your problem.
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TrollPro

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PostSubject: Re: Beers aftermath   Sun Apr 14, 2013 4:04 pm

XXXandBEER wrote:
CHIEFHERO[SKS] wrote:
listen to peoples ideas

Going to break this down word for word
Listen - To trollpro throw out flames and QQ about pointless shit
Peoples - The whole 5 sheep taggers that play
Ideas - No one has come up with any ideas other then myself pls link me a thread with someone other than myself's ideas.
I find it quite ironic u say i 'QQ' when amir talks to you Beer, maybe answer him lol, Amirs lil Eassay is where i actually wanna go. Beer getting all defensive when we are talking about dump map making, get over it.
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CHIEFHERO[SKS]

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PostSubject: Re: Beers aftermath   Sun Apr 14, 2013 5:50 pm

who gives a shit if its open source or not when nobody in this community (apart from 2 guys) know how to edit the map. if everyone knew how to create a map = it wouldn't matter if the official ST map was protected or not; people would simply recreate it from scratch. the map being ''open source'' means, and changes, nothing.

noone is going to play old versions. the newest versions have new and better features, more balancing, less glitches and bugs. and most importantly, old versions have no hope of being updated and develouped. even if people prefer certain old versions more, they're just gonna attempt to influence the latest version into going towards that direction. we're forced to play the latest version precisely because beer is the only guy able to develoup the map atm. we don't want to lose the priceless value of being able to change and IMPROVE the map.

quite insane to propose that people just play whatever outdated version they liked the most if the current version(which is being updated constantly) isn't perfect. you do realize that develoupment would completely stagnate if the community didn't play new versions and came with balancing proposals/changes lol? not only that, but the community would split up like a pair of shaven legs on redtube. ''everyone can play whatever version they like, let the only mapmaker do whatever he wants with the map!" is a fancy way of saying "lets just completely kill this community once and for all".





anyway, this is all blablabla. yes, the map is opensource. yes, everyone can play whatever they want. non of this changes the fact that the mapmaker holds responsibility when he decides to take the map we all enjoy, and start modifying it. i know you mapmakers don't have to listen to anyone because, theoretically, anyone can create their own map, but if you have ANY moral values whatsoever, you'll try to do what's best for the community. and that doesn't include telling people to fuck off when they dislike a certain change in your map, which is what beer did to trollpro.
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Chakra



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PostSubject: Re: Beers aftermath   Sun Apr 14, 2013 6:21 pm

You act like mapmaking is a multi-month investment to learn. I learned how to use the editor in less than a week. The newest maps that include JASS and whatnot might be a bit more difficult, but even that is EASY (1-2 weeks). Adding stacks? Editing objects (units, their movement speeds, abilities, items, etc) is literally point and click. It tells you, "Movement Speed," you double click and change value. Literally easier than working in excel.

It is easier to edit a map than it is to get a hostbot working. This is a GARBAGE excuse: the real reason is you are all too lazy to learn. You're too lazy to do it yourself.

If you compare 7.1.4c to 5.3, of course there are tons of new features, but this isn't what we are doing. We don't COMPLETELY reorganize the basic features of the map, such as X, -random, etc, from one version to the next. Beer might make runes two hit and remove stack (and thus associated abilities/items) from one version to the next, but he isn't adding completely new modes. Only recently has he started making changes to modes, and they are ultimately small.

If people played the second newest map as opposed to the newest map for reasons other than bugs, then the mapmaker knows he can't go in this direction. It's not like he is playing on east or controls Europe's hostbots. Is he forcing you guys to host the new map? If Beer can't play it, you sure as hell know he isn't going to continue developing the map. I promise you he isn't a Magoo playing against computers.

The argument that having several competing maps reduces activity has absolute zero standing. First, it is relatively rare for tight communities to even have multiple maps: the era of the Behh map versus ReBorn only existed 'cause we didn't play a lot together, and even then activity was high. The best map quickly dominates the second best map, and if the second mapmaker wants to compete, they'll adopt the new (or un-adopt their new) changes. The only example of competing ST maps today is Grr against Fixus, and Fixus has clearly died off. Even then, the people who hosted these maps never had communication. Even then, it hasn't killed of activity.

Why does he hold any responsibility? If some famous kid took a photo of the White House, everyone loved it, and he released it as an open license, does that mean EVERYONE who edits it should be beholden to the original kids who like the original photo? Does he have to take their comments? What about a site? Reddit.com is completely open source. If I took their page source and tried to make my own reddit, am I beholden to listen to what kids on reddit.com want? If I create a random subreddit (r/potatoporn), am I required to obey what kids in r/whatporn what?

If I am morally beholden to do what the community wants, then everyone should be morally beholden to learn to mapmake and spend their days fixing bugs and optimizing code. It's nice to update a map for people, but it isn't the moral thing to do.
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CHIEFHERO[SKS]

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PostSubject: Re: Beers aftermath   Sun Apr 14, 2013 8:33 pm

competing maps is good given that there are several mapmakers and the community is growing/its an open community. we got 1 mapmaker and the community is closed. spreading players across different maps/versions means killing the community.

Quote :
If people played the second newest map as opposed to the newest map for reasons other than bugs, then the mapmaker knows he can't go in this direction.
doesn't seem like beer cares that people play different versions/quit. it didn't seem like you (or whoever the mapmaker was) cared either when the majority of the community was complaining about stack being removed in 2006 or whatever. your theory is good tho, that's how it should be, but that's not how it works in reality. you've even admitted to develouping for your own/your friend's sake. i've already explained why a somewhat inferior NEW version will still be preffered over old versions that aren't being updated anymore. it doesn't follow that people will stick to older version simply because a newer version is slightly worse.





i'm not in the mood for a morality debate, so let's just conclude this shit.

CHAKRA: thinks whoever decides to develoup our community map isn't morally obliged to do what's best for the community. in fact, doing whats best for the community isn't even a moral thing to do. but its nice to do it for some reason other than it being morally right, which makes no sense.. further more, essentially telling people to fuckoff (or play something else) when they critisize your map/suggest changes isn't morally wrong, and isn't bad for the community. why? because competing maps are good!

AMIR: you're responsible for taking care of the communities welfare when you decide to be our map-develouper. you're morally obliged to do whats good for this community; not whats good for yourself if it strides against the communities wellbeing. telling people to fuckoff for criticizing your map is an abomination of a sin.

your position in quite insane chakra, but correct me if i'm wrong rofl.
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Chakra



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PostSubject: Re: Beers aftermath   Sun Apr 14, 2013 8:50 pm

Quote :
it didn't seem like you (or whoever the mapmaker was) cared either when the majority of the community was complaining about stack being removed in 2006 or whatever
The super majority played the map without stacks. Perhaps if you were around then, you'd remember. In numerous past threads I've already proven this point by linking back to Mav's site when even SIDEY concedes the map is more party fun than stack map. Holding the position that the majority were against removal of stacks is simply historically incorrect.

Quote :
i've already explained why a somewhat inferior NEW version will still be preffered over old versions that aren't being updated anymore. it doesn't follow that people will stick to older version simply because a newer version is slightly worse.
If you're referring to your argument that people won't play 7.1.0 when 7.1.1 is released because 7.1.0 won't be updated, you're completely wrong. Do you not remember we backtracking previously (early 6.8.x and first two iterations of 7.x maps)?

Quote :
and isn't bad for the community. why? because competing maps are good!
This is a horrid summary. The two arguments are against two completely concepts: having multiple maps and obeying the demands of the community.

It isn't "our community map." That assumes ownership. It's "the map the community plays."

Did Beer decided to be your map-developer? I doubt it; he probably, just as I, took up developing the map to develop it so he and those he plays with could enjoy it more.

You have no argument. This community is simply filled with lazy fucks who try to pull a morality argument. Next you're going to say the president is required to nationalize all private industry "for the good of the community."
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T_P_T

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PostSubject: Re: Beers aftermath   Sun Apr 14, 2013 9:09 pm

TrollPro wrote:
Beers aftermath that i talk about will result in more inactivity and the death of sheeptag itself, peoples though can call me if stacks have been put back into the map, call me if u wanna get rid of this ridiculouss beer, he is the new hitler of sheeptag! Call me if u want alliance.



The new retarded hitler of sheeptag.
So do better map you Mussolin..

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XXXandBEER



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PostSubject: Re: Beers aftermath   Mon Apr 15, 2013 3:10 am

As chakra said I'm mostly editing the map for a select group of people who still actually play sheep tag. It's not many of us so I just throw around ideas to see what I come up with. It's mostly me just trying out new concepts/ideas and seeing if they are good. Most changes I throw out or change even further.
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TrollPro

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PostSubject: Re: Beers aftermath   Mon Apr 15, 2013 6:46 am

XXXandBEER wrote:
As chakra said I'm mostly editing the map for a select group of people who still actually play sheep tag. It's not many of us so I just throw around ideas to see what I come up with. It's mostly me just trying out new concepts/ideas and seeing if they are good. Most changes I throw out or change even further.
And there is nothing wrong with that but if i dont act then how will u accept my opinion if i do not make a big deal out of it? If u add back stacks then please call me Beer, no more flaming.
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XXXandBEER



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PostSubject: Re: Beers aftermath   Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:49 am

Thing is trollpro other people have opposite viewpoint and don't like stacks. And stack/stomp was just silly. I find this is the most fair way to balance out the stack farm. Making it so only the last sheep gets stacks allows that last sheep to still have that special runtag feel as last sheep, but the stacks don't ruin isolation's as wolf. Stacks are in the map trollpro and they are in switch. You played the map before without stacks why not now?
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TrollPro

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PostSubject: Re: Beers aftermath   Mon Apr 15, 2013 8:55 am

XXXandBEER wrote:
Thing is trollpro other people have opposite viewpoint and don't like stacks. And stack/stomp was just silly. I find this is the most fair way to balance out the stack farm. Making it so only the last sheep gets stacks allows that last sheep to still have that special runtag feel as last sheep, but the stacks don't ruin isolation's as wolf. Stacks are in the map trollpro and they are in switch. You played the map before without stacks why not now?


I would like to know what viewpoint peoples got on stack, i know Spyffe has but he also has some very weird conclutions for why he hates stacks, totally irellevant, firsly, stack has always been in the map and that should remain like that in my viewpoint, stack just makes it more funny to sheep and i assume sheeping is the funniest thing of the two aspects of wolving and sheeping in my opinion.
I dont care about the tricky part of bringing ballance to the map or whatever the fuck, peoples got good at using stomp and we barely escape isolations as it is.
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PostSubject: Re: Beers aftermath   Mon Apr 15, 2013 10:28 am

trollpro, I do not understand why you are boycotting beers new map. It still has stacks in it. Also, by allowing only the last sheep standing to use stacks, it promotes map awareness ( sheep will focus more on not getting isolated ) because you cannot just use a stack farm to get safe. Furthermore, it will motivate players to survive as long as they possibly can ( sheep will be less likely to die in 30 seconds ) because they will be rewarded at the end with the stack farm. ( stack farms add the so called "fun" ).

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XXXandBEER



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PostSubject: Re: Beers aftermath   Mon Apr 15, 2013 10:45 am

TrollPro wrote:
XXXandBEER wrote:
Thing is trollpro other people have opposite viewpoint and don't like stacks. And stack/stomp was just silly. I find this is the most fair way to balance out the stack farm. Making it so only the last sheep gets stacks allows that last sheep to still have that special runtag feel as last sheep, but the stacks don't ruin isolation's as wolf. Stacks are in the map trollpro and they are in switch. You played the map before without stacks why not now?


I would like to know what viewpoint peoples got on stack, i know Spyffe has but he also has some very weird conclutions for why he hates stacks, totally irellevant, firsly, stack has always been in the map and that should remain like that in my viewpoint, stack just makes it more funny to sheep and i assume sheeping is the funniest thing of the two aspects of wolving and sheeping in my opinion.
I dont care about the tricky part of bringing ballance to the map or whatever the fuck, peoples got good at using stomp and we barely escape isolations as it is.

Stacks have not always been in the map and if it weren't for me they never would have come back in the first place.
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Chakra



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PostSubject: Re: Beers aftermath   Mon Apr 15, 2013 12:30 pm

John Boehner wrote:
Listen, I believe that marriage is the union of one man and one woman. All right. It's what I grew up with. It's what I believe. It's what my church teaches me. And I can't imagine that position would ever change.
TrollPro seriously using same argument as this clown?
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CHIEFHERO[SKS]

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PostSubject: Re: Beers aftermath   Mon Apr 15, 2013 2:56 pm

fun fact 1: stack has been removed/added plenty of times. every time stacks get removed, people quit. people also quit in periods when the stack is added, but the difference lies in the reason for quitting. people explicitly mention that the removal of the stack made them lose complete interest in the game, such as trollpro now. i dont remember a single instance in ST history where someone admittedly quit st because stacks was added.

this doesn't prove anything, but i thought it was worth mentioning just to make the anti-stack-allience a bit more frustrated and miserable Very Happy



fun fact 2: the value stacks add to the gameplay is enhanced when you also add the invis, and vice versa. for the full experience, and to really understand why so many people in ST history fought for the stack and the invis, you have to lump them into a package. adding 1 at a time and doing separate analysis will show you a mere fraction of the full value these additions add to the game.



fun fact 3: everything beer is trying to achieve with his map (i actually love that beer's innovative and tries new approaches) is achieved through adding the stack and the invis. addition of stacks and invis is a direct step towards beers goal for the map. the goals he set for his map, and i QuOtEz, are; ''...more fluff items/abilities/usage...i'm doing it so people have more options, sheeptag in the past was always made for cutting/massing...".



Tune in daily and look for new posts, funfact 4-6 is coming soon!!
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Chakra



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PostSubject: Re: Beers aftermath   Mon Apr 15, 2013 5:20 pm

I played Beer's map (and that's every version he produced) a total of one time, and I was dragged in by like five people and only stayed for about four rounds. I didn't explictely make a silly post saying, "I NO LONGER PLAY 'CAUSE STACKS," I simply stopped.
Drew? " [21:15:40.046] <drewisfat> quit because stacks/runes/sheepimages/2hit/wolf range nerf"

Sorry we aren't as childlike that we have to announce to the world we are no longer playing. We know no one really cares besides those we are always chatting to on BNet, whom no doubt would already know.


The obviously solution to the cutting/massing dilemma has already been solved, and it isn't going to be resolved by adding new items or abilities, with the exception of very high AoE or farms requiring a sheep to be somewhat near them to stay alive. As Drew put it: the map needs to be smaller. Further, if you really want to make it vastly more enjoyable for shepherds, the saving dynamic needs to be completely reworked or removed. Even Sidey agrees camping is bullshit, and the camping issue can only be resolved be a) making saves meaningless (or to some degree) or by removing the current method of saving.
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CHIEFHERO[SKS]

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PostSubject: Re: Beers aftermath   Mon Apr 15, 2013 6:48 pm

CAMMANS CHAKRA! it's not like you and drew benefit from lying about quitting due to a stack-addition, when you two are largely responsible for removing stacks in the first place! you have your reputation and perceived intellect to protect by lying. in contrast, you can trust trollpro/others, because they got nothing to gain from lying. what benefits are there to trollpro if he lies about being pro-stack if he isn't? he got everything to gain from being honest(higher chance the map increases in fun).

anyway, lets just assume (for argument's sake) that we can trust you. im not in the mood to pull a ''LIAR!'' card (even though u have really good incentive to twist the truth, with 0 risk of being busted).

This still wouldn't explain why many players explicitly quit because of the removal of the stack, while an insignificant amount quit because of the addition. sure, you and drew aren't childish, but what about everyone else? are all pro-stackers childish, and all anti-stackers mature? PLEASE don't argue that noone quit because of stack-removal, or that equally many quit because of stack-addition in your reply. i will slaughter both of these positions.



i can't make sense out of your last paragraph. are you just blabbering general ideas? or does it have any relevance to anything i've said?
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TrollPro

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PostSubject: Re: Beers aftermath   Mon Apr 15, 2013 11:18 pm

Spoofy wrote:
trollpro, I do not understand why you are boycotting beers new map. It still has stacks in it. Also, by allowing only the last sheep standing to use stacks, it promotes map awareness ( sheep will focus more on not getting isolated ) because you cannot just use a stack farm to get safe. Furthermore, it will motivate players to survive as long as they possibly can ( sheep will be less likely to die in 30 seconds ) because they will be rewarded at the end with the stack farm. ( stack farms add the so called "fun" ).
Spoofy, i assume that u know that 'last sheep being rewarded' is actually not everyone but only the best or the lucky peoples? Some will get more rewarded than others and it's like winning a jackpot, it's messed up, i dont like it.
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PostSubject: Re: Beers aftermath   Tue Apr 16, 2013 5:02 am

Ask everyone you know if they've played a ST ReVo game with my recently. No one, unless they freak liar, will say they have. Drew has played Beer maps quite a bit more than me, so IDK what kind of response you'll get with him.

People haven't always done the "I'm quitting" threads. Stacks were added in what, 2006? 2005? There weren't even Mav forums that far back--only clan forums like aFc and Behh, and they weren't very popular, though I do remember a few "I'm quitting" threads. Further, stacks directly led to the west run tag movement, and many people said they stopped playing because of this.

By the time Beer added stacks, the community was already down to nothing. You clearly don't play if you think I might be lying--who else on Europe still plays besides CsBers and eeNZers and random Easties/Euros? Maybe only like two people quit, but that's still 5% of the community. ^^ And clearly the smaller the community, the more they are going to put up with shit, as they are already the most resilient to quitting.

It is not a general idea, it's already been implemented in Survival mode on Bulldog and seems to be a success (depending on who you are playing with).
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PostSubject: Re: Beers aftermath   Tue Apr 16, 2013 7:37 am

Quote :
Further, stacks directly led to the west run tag movement, and many people said they stopped playing because of this.

1) runtag and stacks aren't synonyms. europe has had runtag for years without the stackfarm. runtag is a playstyle/different interpretation of the game, stack is a tool used both in runtag and massing.

2) if people chose runtag over of massing on west, it implies that they found runtag to be a superior playform. and if stacks directly led to/enabled the runtag movement (and this movement took over the entire community), the implication is that the vast majority finds ST to be more fun WITH stacks than without.

you can also argue that people would find runtag to be more fun than massing without the stackfarm as well, but then you'd concede the idea that stacks are responsible for runtag. people would inevitably runtag either way if they found it more fun, and the people that quit playing because of runtag would have quit either way, making your point futile.





i still don't have an answer to why noone admittedly, and directly, quit because of the stackfarm. We know alot of people directly and explicitly pointed at the removal of the stack when telling others why they decided to quit playing. and about the lying...the point is that we can't directly prove whether you're telling the truth or not, but we know that you have really good incentive(and 0 risk) for lying, as i pointed out in my last post. im not saying that you are lying, but i think everyone should take your word in this particular case with a grain of salt. it's irrelevant tho. the fact remains even if YOU quit because of stacks.
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