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 STOP saying that I've maphacked

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BEeeH

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PostSubject: STOP saying that I've maphacked   Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:00 am

What the fuck is this? I see idiots like exa, amir and skillownz saying that I've been "busted" by jeanmii for maphacking. WHAT? Did u guys even read the thread jeanmii made? Did you guys even watch the replay? He didnt prove SHITS. He just made up some bullshit about a red circle that randomly appeared on pab's sheep, in EVERYONES point of view.

The shit with Hanku was also just retarded. Hanku wrote "range" in allies as jeanmii said, but he also wrote "Wow..." in all, which I replied to.

I am NOT a maphacker. I've died countless times to invis. Amir and other geeks are just trying to make me look bad like exa.

Here's the thread jeanmii made when he "busted" me: http://stwc.forumotion.com/t13p15-beeeh-maphacks
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CHIEFHERO[SKS]

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PostSubject: Re: STOP saying that I've maphacked   Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:17 am

i never said that you maphack now. in fact, im pretty certain that you don't, since i snipe you all the time etc.

the argument was: IF exa gets excluded from the tourney because he HAS maphacked before, THEN other people will also get excluded IF they have maphacked before. following the same logic, IF people have cheated before in any way, THEN they would get excluded from the tourney as well. there is no reason to have 0 consequences for smurfing(cheating) while there are consequences for maphacking(Cheating). you must have misunderstood my post.




everyone claims to never have maphacked(i think polar is the only kid who admitted it after being busted), but yeah. it doesn't matter, all that matters is that i present a very good case that someone has maphacked at any point in time, and they would get excluded...if we listened to shoop. but yeah, you dont mh.
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BEeeH

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PostSubject: Re: STOP saying that I've maphacked   Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:25 am

From sidey tour thread:

CHIEFHERO[SKS] wrote:

it will be a TOTAL disaster to disqualify my team based on the chance that one of the players were cheating, as if polar/beeeh/twix/cmk/many others have never been busted for mh before as well.


we know that he has maphacked. and the same applies to polar and twix and beeeh(who have been busted beyond doubt, and some of them have admitted it).
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CHIEFHERO[SKS]

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PostSubject: Re: STOP saying that I've maphacked   Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:30 am

from this thread:

Quote :
i never said that you maphack now. in fact, im pretty certain that you don't, since i snipe you all the time etc.

Quote :
all that matters is that i present a very good case that someone has maphacked at any point in time, and they would get excluded...if we listened to shoop



i said in the sidey thread that exa hasn't been busted completely. the ss is not conclusive evidence, it just highly suggest that he has used MH at some point. you have also been ''busted'', as well as many others. this doesnt mean we know for a FACT that that you mh, but there have been ''beyond any doubt'' cases made for you maphacking.

so i repeat; noone said that you MH now, or that you HAVE maphacked. i was saying that if shoop knows for a fact that exa maphacks, then i know for a fact that others maphack, based on shoops criteria for making that judgement.
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BEeeH

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PostSubject: Re: STOP saying that I've maphacked   Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:36 am

lol stop edits


Last edited by BEeeH on Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:38 am; edited 1 time in total
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CHIEFHERO[SKS]

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PostSubject: Re: STOP saying that I've maphacked   Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:37 am

from this thread:

Quote :
so i repeat; noone said that you MH now, or that you HAVE maphacked. i was saying that if shoop knows for a fact that exa maphacks, then i know for a fact that others maphack, based on shoops criteria for making that judgement.

and that criteria is that its very likely that they maphack, NOT that it is a proven fact. comprende?
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Shoop

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PostSubject: Re: STOP saying that I've maphacked   Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:51 am

No the criteria I suggest is that it has been proven beyond reasonable doubt that they maphack (such as the Exalius case).

Quote :
Generally the prosecution bears the burden of proof and is required to prove their version of events to this standard. This means that the proposition being presented by the prosecution must be proven to the extent that there could be no "reasonable doubt" in the mind of a "reasonable person" that the defendant is guilty.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reasonable_doubt

Which basicly means in a house of court Exa would be found guilty of maphacking if it was a crime.

The difference between smurfing and maphacking as I see it is that it is a lot easier to defend ourselves against smurfing.
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I_think_I_own



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PostSubject: Re: STOP saying that I've maphacked   Thu Feb 02, 2012 3:15 pm

lol beeeeh doesnt maphack for sure 100%. i am usually at his house on the weekend (slumber pajama party) and we play sheep tag/dota in his room whenever there is an inhouse up.... i know this for sure b/c i watch from the back as he plays st lol he is mega pro he has fast fingers when he masses and ofc doesnt mh
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CHIEFHERO[SKS]

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PostSubject: Re: STOP saying that I've maphacked   Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:33 pm

shoop, you don't solve any problem by banning exa while at the same time saying that even streaming the games won't prove he doesn't maphack. you are just excluding a bunch of good players from this community without considering the effect it has on our games and value. what will stop exa from maphacking when hes allowed back in the tournament in 6 months? you're just making people be more careful about maphacking with your blabber while at the same time lessening the average skill in our ST games in the process.

the only solution to the maphack problem is to remove the advantage of maphacking. this is because we're a really small community, there is no hope for recruiting new players and we need to make everyone who's decent at ST keep playing. anything ban/exclusion of some of the bigger players in this community will kill the game even faster. this is another one of your ideas which isn't thought out at all and has 0 long-term perspective, like the removal of the stack.




tell me why you don't want to make smurfing/cheating in other ways ''sosially unacceptable''? you don't want to give any punishment for cheating in other ways. this doesn't make any sense to anyone. you base everything on punishing the people you don't like while claiming to ''care about the community'', when its quite clear to everyone except you that this community will lose ALOT if you make exa/twix/polar and many others quit playing because they can't participate in any tournaments/serious games.
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e8lakes

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PostSubject: Re: STOP saying that I've maphacked   Thu Feb 02, 2012 11:36 pm

I'm not convinced that beeeeh maphacked, although amir said so before beeeh stood up to protect himself.


It's as ridiculous to talk about exa here as amir tries to argue behaviour of worst moral standards is ok as long as the people who commited it are not doing it when everyone watches, but continue to do it when noone can actually create un-edit-able proof and share it with everyone so noone can have any doubt about it (given that material exa posted himself some days ago and not even saying he did not maphack isn't enough).
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Shoop

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PostSubject: Re: STOP saying that I've maphacked   Fri Feb 03, 2012 5:39 am

Amir, first of all what do you mean not considering? I am opening up this discussion just beacause I want to consider it. It is you who direcly dismiss it.

And who are these bunch of people?

Anyway what it will lead to is hard to say. It might lead to people being more carefull, it might lead to reduced maphacking. What I am certain of is that if we dont do anything maphacking will drasticly increase, especially now when we actually have proof someone maphacks (I didnt know we had this before). However what we should do is a discussion that should be open.

Also, the stack discussion and what to do about smurfing are 2 different discussions that have nothing to do with this. Me and most players think removing stack was a good decision through a long term perspective. You dont. If you want to discuss that make a new topic.
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CHIEFHERO[SKS]

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PostSubject: Re: STOP saying that I've maphacked   Fri Feb 03, 2012 5:55 am

ur the one who's going off-topic. stop telling people to make new threads when they are replying to your posts. nothing in ur last post is on-topic. are you completely nuts?



we are doing something about maphack, which i said in my last post. however, the solution is not to exclude people from the community. people who offer value. you just have a personal problem with exa and you want to do anything to get him despite what the effect on the community and our tourneys is. you claim to care about the community, so either you have really bad analytical ability or you're lying. whatever the case is, that is why noone agrees with your ideas(such as excluding exa from our games). the rest of us do not want to force players like exa/twix/polar and many others to quit playing when there are other ways to eliminate the maphack issue. comprendos?

its interesting that you don't want to reply to the smurfing/punishing cheaters point. ill let everyone draw their own conclusion from that.
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Shoop

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PostSubject: Re: STOP saying that I've maphacked   Fri Feb 03, 2012 6:39 am

If you think this is the wrong topic to discuss what we should do about maphacking why do you keep writing about it here? I did start a topic about it, why dont you write the solution you have there and Beeeh can have his topic in peace?

Also I will reply to the "smurfing/punishing cheaters point" if you just make a topic about it. It is important to keep discussions separated both for the incentive to make topics and for the discussions themselves.
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CHIEFHERO[SKS]

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PostSubject: Re: STOP saying that I've maphacked   Fri Feb 03, 2012 7:58 am

shoop u dont know what off-topic means. every post in this thread is on-topic until your first post, which is off-topic. you need a reality-check.

if you as an admin are going to post off-topic in peoples threads, i don't see why the rest shouldn't as well. your job is to make the rules, mods job is to maintain them. or do the rules not apply to you?

it was the same story on the old forums, when you made a thread and then moved all of sideys posts to a different thread despite them being relevant.





notice how shoop replies to the other stuff he considers off-topic at first(and refuses to reply to why he doesn't want to exclude himself from tourneys for cheating), then when i ask him about smurfing agian, he sais its off-topic Very Happy
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e8lakes

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PostSubject: Re: STOP saying that I've maphacked   Fri Feb 03, 2012 9:15 am

Amir idc about your problem you have about admins or guessing personal agendas of anyone here.

on-topic: You'd say we shouldn't punish people who bring value.

Can you please explain why? Can you please explain why the impact of not punishing people with value is more positive than punishing them.

Shoop said: If we don't punish the hackers soon everyone will start to hack and if not everyone does, hackers will have an unfair advantage which leads to further displeasure for everyone else (you agreed on hacking being bad already)
Why do people with value (probably people want to learn how to be more valueable) deserve a treatment where hacking will not be punished?

Can you also define what you mean by value and tell us if it's value for the community (if so, is it more than 50%? value for atleast one clan? value, because of organising things? value because of power? value, because of positive influence in a game?) or value for single persons (if so, persons that run the show? those single persons include yourself and that's why you stand up for him?)

If you make that stuff clear we can have a discussion on Exa.


Furthermore, please notice that shoop wants to punish people for hacking in general, that would, however, include people that have been caught hacking in a certain time (that time will be discussed if we agree on punishing them).

I don't get your motives to protect a hacker, although you say hacking is bad. Please explain yourself.
If you can't, atleast admit that you don't want exa banned for personal reasons and we can have a discussion on wether we should ban someone although 50%+ of the people have personal interest in not banning that person if that person promises not to hack anymore.

This dancing about making gernal rules, but trying to make general exclusions for non-general cases is awful.
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CHIEFHERO[SKS]

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PostSubject: Re: STOP saying that I've maphacked   Fri Feb 03, 2012 10:00 am

lakes. if you dont care about my problems with admins, what makes you think anyone cares that you dont care? i think a fitting saying here is: dont throw rocks in a glasshouse(shoutout to shoop!).



shoops premise:
1) people who have maphacked at any point in time should get excluded
2) people who have smurfed at any point in time should not get excluded
3) streaming games doesn't prove you dont maphack
4) its extremely hard(impossible) to catch maphackers unless they are stupid enough to get busted

based on that, he thinks exa should get excluded. my criticism is:

1) why should we punish one form of cheating but not another? its unjust
2) not punishing one way of cheating at all but punishing maphack encourages cheats with no consequenses. its inconsistent and illogical
3) if its extremely hard to catch maphackers, and there is no way for exa to prove that he doesn't maphack, what stops him from maphacking when hes allowed back in tourneys again(being careful to not get caught)? the punishment doesn't solve the maphack problem, but it de-values our games in the process and makes people want to stop playing ST(not allowed to play serious games).



either we act illogical and inconsistent, or we exclude everyone who has ever cheated. even if we just excluded people who maphack, alot of good players would be excluded. this is a bad strategy because there are ZERO new players joining our community. losing current good players is devastating. the best strategy is to remove the benefits of maphack(kill invis). this is the only solution which focuses on improving gameplay instead of punishment without any goal.
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e8lakes

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PostSubject: Re: STOP saying that I've maphacked   Fri Feb 03, 2012 12:33 pm

Not only is shoops premise 1) or 2) simply not been made by him, but also 3) is completely true and anyone would agree on that while 4) is irrelevant, because exa was stupid enough to get caught

Your criticism:

1) First things first: Argue for punishment for maphackers, then smurfer.
2) Again, first things first. (Why are you so scared of smurfing?)
3) To go with your logic: Imagine it was extremely hard to find out who the murderer is, then we should rather not punish a murderer if we catch him, because other murderers will be more careful not to get caught if we punish them...
That's bullshit


Listen, maphack isn't only used against invis, it can be used to see pings and god knows what else and gives unfair advantage even if you don't use removal of the fog or seeing invis.

Your only arguement is that if we punish hackers too hard that our community dies out. Yet we just argue about punishing them at all, not even banning (alternatively we could remove them from all tournaments, rankings and treat them with less respect)
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CHIEFHERO[SKS]

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PostSubject: Re: STOP saying that I've maphacked   Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:05 pm

if we punish one cheater we should punish them all.

punishing cheaters is(or should be. maybe its not when you have an agenda) designed to get rid of the problem. banning the ones that get caught maphacking doesnt get rid of the problem AND it causes even bigger problems to our community.

my suggestion gets rid of the problem with ZERO negatives(if you believe that invis should be removed from the map regardless of the maphacking problem, which most people do think).




everything has been explained. how can you possible see flaws in this? if you want to debate with me, show me how shoops proposal is better than mine when it comes to getting rid of maphack, why his proposal is fair(he doesn't want to punish himself for having cheated before) and how our community improves by banning a number of people instead of removing their abilities to cheat. i dont buy the ''maphack is still a massive advantage if we remove invis" argument. its a minor concern with FAR less negative sides than excluding good players from the community.
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PostSubject: Re: STOP saying that I've maphacked   Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:11 pm

The problem is that that is not my proposal amir.

My proposal is that we discuss how we should deal with maphack and maphackers, and Ive made another thread for that. This thread is about proving Beeeh maphacks.
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