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 Blacklisted Sheeptaggers

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Shoop

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PostSubject: Re: Blacklisted Sheeptaggers   Fri Jan 04, 2013 12:11 pm

Chakra I am not exacly sure what you are talking about, is it anything Ive written or is it just general complaints you have recieved in other situations?

Anyway this list will remind us who we cannot give trust to in the future.

Since you say "individuals cant just declare rights", what are these rights you are talking about and where do they come from?
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Celestial_One



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PostSubject: Re: Blacklisted Sheeptaggers   Fri Jan 04, 2013 12:15 pm

If maphacking is worthy of blacklist then so should cheating during high-level tournaments. Ya can't hold double standards..
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Chakra



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PostSubject: Re: Blacklisted Sheeptaggers   Fri Jan 04, 2013 12:18 pm

Like rights to my map. Or rights to administrate this here forum. Or rights to enter channel Clan StH. Or rights to be a grunt in Clan CsB.

Amir said I should be blacklisted because I didn't give the map away immediately after I stopped developing it. You seemed to hold that as a possible "offense."
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ANameWasTaken



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PostSubject: Re: Blacklisted Sheeptaggers   Fri Jan 04, 2013 12:31 pm

Quote :
ANameWasTaken, who are you
I'm AName you idiot. It's like how magoogotbanned came after magoo, except that for some reason AName was already taken on these forums when I registered, and it wasn't by me.

Quote :
and why do you participate in the discussion if you think its ridicilus lol?
Because it's about time that somebody points out to all of you how ridiculous these discussions are. Go do something productive and worthwhile, unless somehow having ridiculous arguments about privileges with other random online internet people makes your day.

Quote :
Anyway this list will remind us who we cannot give trust to in the future.
What future? The way it's looking there is no future for ST unless either Blizzard comes out with WC4 or Chakra and I finish our game. Fortunately our project is looking very optimistic, so if there's any respect left to give from this stupid community it should be given to Chakra for helping to take care of the map properly and for spending so much time working on the next ST.
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Shoop

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PostSubject: Re: Blacklisted Sheeptaggers   Fri Jan 04, 2013 3:11 pm

Celestial
Maphacking alone is not enough. And maphacking and then refusing to admit it is obviously far worse. But not even that alone is enough.

Chakra
Ok, and can you describe what "right to administrate forum is", how does it differ from the power to administrate the forum?

AName, rofl I remember you. The random that played legend on SheepGods old forum. How are you? Anyway, if you think you "pointing out how ridicilus this is"will change how anyone behaves does that mean you will care if I point out how ridicilus your posts are? If you dont care about the discussion, then dont participate in it. Ok?
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Chakra



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PostSubject: Re: Blacklisted Sheeptaggers   Fri Jan 04, 2013 3:14 pm

"Right to administrate" would mean I should be admin while "power to administrate" would mean I am admin.
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PostSubject: Re: Blacklisted Sheeptaggers   Fri Jan 04, 2013 3:15 pm

Ok, so if you feel you should be able to murder you have the rigt to murder in your opinion?
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Chakra



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PostSubject: Re: Blacklisted Sheeptaggers   Fri Jan 04, 2013 4:08 pm

What? Do you even read my posts anymore?
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Shoop

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PostSubject: Re: Blacklisted Sheeptaggers   Fri Jan 04, 2013 4:13 pm

Yeah I read your posts, I am just wonder what the hell you mean with "individuals cant just declare rights"? Do you mean individuals cant have opinions about how things should be?
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Chakra



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PostSubject: Re: Blacklisted Sheeptaggers   Fri Jan 04, 2013 5:36 pm

No, individuals can't declare to have the unprotected version of my map. They can, of course, voice opinion. But voicing opinion does not mean they contributed work to the map. Just as me posting on this forum doesn't make me admin of it.
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PostSubject: Re: Blacklisted Sheeptaggers   Sun Jan 06, 2013 3:40 am

Noone have claimed that wanting to edit the map gives you the possibility to do so. So what exacly is your point?
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CHIEFHERO[SKS]

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PostSubject: Re: Blacklisted Sheeptaggers   Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:40 am

chakra.

i think that clinging onto the community map (which near everyone in the community participated in improving in one way or another) after you stopped developing it is wrong. it has nothing to do with declaring a ''right to your map''. i think that what you did was selfish and out of spite. it didn't even benefit you to cling on to the map. i think you were angry that some europeans flamed you, so you decided to take revenge by making them create their own, new map. but ofcourse, you released your map years later, after madhatters (i believe?) created an identical ST map in around 1 week.



do you think this behavior is acceptable in a community that's trying to prosper, chakra? these are emotional acts that are LARGELY destructive for the community, just like spreading eachothers personal information all across the internet. big, big crimes. anyone with a shred of intelligence and good intentions for the community frowns upon these acts.
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ANameWasTaken



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PostSubject: Re: Blacklisted Sheeptaggers   Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:42 am

Aww, poor ChiefHero is upset because he didn't get a map file when he wanted it. Sad
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Shoop

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PostSubject: Re: Blacklisted Sheeptaggers   Sun Jan 06, 2013 9:12 am

No but he is saying its wrong to hold back the map fomed by the community and the map the community is depending on to prosper out of spite if you have no intention of developing it further (not saying that Chakra did this). Which I agree on.
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Chakra



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PostSubject: Re: Blacklisted Sheeptaggers   Sun Jan 06, 2013 9:27 am

Amir, what I did by "clinging" to the map was choose to not help the community. I did not harm it; I simply didn't help it. Am I required by some law to devote time to this community? To give it my works? Why didn't you make a map in one week?

And stop saying "years." I released the unprotected copy 319 days after I released the final version.
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ANameWasTaken



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PostSubject: Re: Blacklisted Sheeptaggers   Sun Jan 06, 2013 9:29 am

Lol don't you get it? WC3 is dead. It doesn't matter what happens to the map because either way you're all going to stop playing it in probably a few years or less (and to my understanding you pretty much already did).

Even still, he specifically didn't release the map to the public for obvious reasons.
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Shoop

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PostSubject: Re: Blacklisted Sheeptaggers   Sun Jan 06, 2013 9:52 am

Chakra, no you are no obligied by any law. Just like there are no laws that forbid you from maphacking or banning people because they flame you. But they are all actions that can be questioned morally. If you chose to not hand out the map when you stopped developing it, what was your reason to not do this?

AName, what I dont get is wtf you are doing here? If you dont care stop interfering in the discussion. If you got something to add, say it. What were these "obvious reasons"?
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ANameWasTaken



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PostSubject: Re: Blacklisted Sheeptaggers   Sun Jan 06, 2013 10:00 am

If I had nothing to add, I wouldn't be posting here at all.

The obvious reasons are that the STC wanted to keep the number of ST map variations and versions to a minimum. We wanted a specific map to play rather than switching up all of the details, terrain, commands, etc. - otherwise there would be a bunch of inconsistencies.
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PostSubject: Re: Blacklisted Sheeptaggers   Sun Jan 06, 2013 10:43 am

Indeed, the fact that you post is proof your post contributes...

And since WHEN do you represent the STC? The correct answer might be that Chakra wanted to keep the number of different maps to a minimum.
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PostSubject: Re: Blacklisted Sheeptaggers   Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:37 am

aname stfu.



chakra, you did do alot of the work, but the whole community helped you develop the map by spending alot of time testing, thinking about how to improve it, giving feedback etc.

you chose to keep the map to yourself after you quit developing. NOT because of some benefits to yourself. but out of spite.

you didnt ''choose not to help us''. you could have done the same by releasing the map and letting someone else develop it. 0 work for you, 0 harm to you. you chose to HINDER development to get back at people for flaming you. its quite insane that you try to defend your actions instead of admitting that it was childish and improper.
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Celestial_One



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PostSubject: Re: Blacklisted Sheeptaggers   Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:21 pm

Nobody questions whether it is morally right for chakra to keep the map... we all know the answer, but does that REALLY deserve blacklisting? The obvious answer is no. As a community he HELPED US by giving us a map, and though some may disagree he made changes which he thought were for the best. That's all you can want in a mapmaker.

You might not like him but you owe him for the constant and timely updates with new versions over the course of YEARS.


Blacklisting chakra is no better than no giving up the map. He served the community well while he did.

You fail to ultimately recognize that chakra's map is CHAKRA'S just like daddy's care is daddy's. If daddy is done with his car and doesn't want to let you drive his car, even if it's morally wrong, it's HIS to choose what to do with it, even if it's to let it sit in his garage forever OR just one year.
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Chakra



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PostSubject: Re: Blacklisted Sheeptaggers   Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:28 pm

If I produced cheeses and gave out free samples to see how possible consumers liked them, those who got free samples aren't considered doing work. They might say they like, in which they show by creating a demand for said product. They, however, in no way gain ownership of my cheese plants or recipe. Similarly, pharmaceutical companies may do testing trials--most of which testers get no money, but sometimes do, mainly due to possibly reactions, still hold complete and absolute ownership over their drugs, including the physical drug as well as the recipe.

Because I post on this forum does not entitle me to become admin if Shoop and Runemining quit. I may suggest changes, but I am still an end user, a client, not part of the production process and thus have no power.


I am perfectly within my rights, in basically any country that exists, to waste my money, or my products, or a giant production plant. I can, if I want to, put in my will to have all of my factories closed and have all of my assets dumped into a volcano (excepting littering laws). I don't have to give it to my children or to the poor. People aren't entitled to the fruits of my labor, especially if those people constantly verbally attack me and those fruits. I can choose not to help the less wealthy.

Secondly, I did give out the map, as I have said. Hawkys and Drewisfat both asked for the map and both got it.


Now, I do accept that it can be an asshat move to place all of my assets in the volcano, but let's considering a few more facts. First, as you yourself recognize, this community is full of jerks. If some homeless guy constantly threw pennies at my limo while I drove by, should he expect my mansion when I die? I gave the map to people who asked. But it is true, if you had asked, I would have said a) you are completely unqualified to develop a map (both due to low understanding of development and lack of the technical skills required) and b) you're an ass.

So let me summarize this before we continue in this loop.
1: I developed a map so me and my friends could have an enjoyable experience. I implemented a total of zero beta testing teams, mainly because no one would bother helping (Mike, Doh-San, and a very few others being exceptions). The "testing," including feedback and suggestions, was gained by people wanting to play my game. Just as users write reviews for products they consume. They did not do so out of altruism, they did it so they could better enjoy the map.
2: I never made explicit or implicit agreements that my map was owned by the global community and I am a simple workhorse. I developed the map so I could play with my friends, and as such I took the suggestions of mainly myself and my friends. There is a reason Europe has had relatively little say in how the map was developed: I didn't develop it so you guys could have fun, I developed it so my friends and I (and "my friends" ultimately translates to myself) could have fun. Because I liked my friends, when they asked for the map, I gave it to them.
3: The global community, outside of my circle of friends, has always been full of pricks. They live in a world were flames are fun, exciting, and enjoyable. A sadist community. They played my map because they lacked the will and knowledge to make their own. I never catered specifically to them. I never had joy when playing with most of them. Now this community, a community generally outside of my target audience, a community that has always been hostile towards me, demands my map.
4: Madhatters recreated my map in one week. Doh-San had created numerous unprotected mirrors dating as far back as 2008. Many unprotected copies were released over the years. Instead of bitching for five years that I am a horrible, Nazi map creator, why didn't you find someone to make and develop the map themself? This community never wanted my map. They wanted me to continue working on the map. Please, show proof of me denying someone access to the map after I stopped developing it.


Last edited by Chakra on Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Shoop

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PostSubject: Re: Blacklisted Sheeptaggers   Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:37 pm

Chakra, you continue to missunderstand what this is about. NOONE is claiming you broke any laws, and NOONE is claiming anyone is "entitled" to get the map. What we are saying however is that it is wrong not to hand over the map to someone trustworthy that will develop it further IF you decide to stop developing it, and in lack of that to the community as a whole.

The comparison would be if I would simply stopped using the forum as an administrator alone and refuse to make someone else admin. Not that it would be wrong to deny anyone who wanted to be admin admin.

If you took over a community map to develop it for your friends alone that was indeed also wrong. Your loyalty should have been with the community as a whole, not your friends (which doesnt mean you cant develop it according to your own ideas and judgement). If you thought this job was ungratefull you could have just stopped, given the map away and developed your own game for you, doh-san, AName and Mike.
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Celestial_One



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PostSubject: Re: Blacklisted Sheeptaggers   Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:24 pm

Quote :
If you took over a community map to develop it for your friends alone that was indeed also wrong.

Gosusheep gave the map to chakra to do with what he wills. It was never a community map, it was gosusheep's.

Do normal ownership rules not apply in Europe?

tldr; You pissed off the mapmaker and flamed him relentlessly after countless workhours were spent aiming to please. Chakra never owed the community anything. He shouldn't be obliged to do SHIT.

The fact that he gave ANYONE the map, to me, is over-generous. Nobody in this community is deserving of any of my respect EXCEPT for the mapmakers. If you wanted the map you could have asked hawkys or drew. Or, like mentioned many times, you could have made your own map in a WEEK.

That you want to blacklist him is laughable and a feeble attempt at some sadistic euro revenge. I guess we should blacklist gosusheep now too, since he gave the map to chakra instead of making it public, right?

Honestly did you ever think you were going to get Chakra's unprotected map by constantly flaming him in channel and calling him a 'vampire toilet licker cockroach' when he did a change you didn't agree with? This community is full of ungrateful shitheads, and that's why the best mapmaker in the community (in my opinion, gosusheep) ultimately stopped playing and editting the map.
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ANameWasTaken



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PostSubject: Re: Blacklisted Sheeptaggers   Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:27 pm

In summary: the fact that you would bother to make a forum topic specifically about blacklisting people from the community (as if this is some sort of cult... lol...) and then argue over blacklisting the map maker demonstrates the very reason that the map maker didn't give you the map.
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