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 Sheep Tag 7.3.1B

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XXXandBEER



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PostSubject: Sheep Tag 7.3.1B   Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:39 pm

Yeah so no major changes just some number re-working that should make the map more enjoyable.

Fixes
-Bug with anti stack stomp when a player uses it on a sheep that already has the effect
-Bug with anti stack stomp when a player uses it on a sheep then kills the sheep before it wears off


Abilities
-Anti Stack Stomp effect kicks in when the spell finishes casting instead of begins casting so you have to finish casting the ability before you move in order for it to take effect
-Anti Stack Stomp AoE increased to 300 from 275
-Sheep illusion now only allows 1 sheep illusion per player
-Sheep illusion duration reduced to 60 from 90
-Sheep illusion mana cost reduced to 100 from 150


Farms
-Reduced stack farm model size
-Stack Farm gold cost reduced to 10 from 12


Items
-Gloves of haste cost increased to 80/112 from 70/98
-Reworked claws so they should work like previous claws for 1 hit and strong 1 hit. As well as strong 2 hit
-Claws +48 is now claws +45
-Claws +21 is now claws +16
-Claws +9 is now claws +8

Claws +192 Recipe rework
-Is now claws +90
-Recipe now requires only 2xClaws +45 instead of 4


General
-Runes intial spawn is 60 seconds instead of wolf spawn
-Wolves spawn instantly in switch


Download: http://www.epicwar.com/maps/218538/

Enjoy.


Last edited by XXXandBEER on Fri Dec 07, 2012 5:38 am; edited 3 times in total
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Nmcdo

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PostSubject: why not   Fri Dec 07, 2012 1:07 am

Beer, because of how fast wolves destroy farms, I think in my opinion you should make the wolves attack speeds a little bit slower.
Idk just a idea. Cheers.
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AquaLIvE



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PostSubject: SheepTag Map   Fri Dec 07, 2012 3:03 am

Yee, I agree with Nmcdo
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TraxxWOLF

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PostSubject: Re: Sheep Tag 7.3.1B   Fri Dec 07, 2012 5:59 am

I do not agree at all. This will lead to weird situation in runtag/hymping situation and will make it even easier to stack a wolf.

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XXXandBEER



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PostSubject: Re: Sheep Tag 7.3.1B   Fri Dec 07, 2012 6:01 am

TraxxWOLF wrote:
I do not agree at all. This will lead to weird situation in runtag/hymping situation and will make it even easier to stack a wolf.

Yeah reducing attack speed = increase in misses/range or just not swinging at all.

EDIT: Since wolves kill farms faster I made them spawn later and increased sheep gold over time.
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Chakra



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PostSubject: Re: Sheep Tag 7.3.1B   Fri Dec 07, 2012 7:47 am

Modifying the initial attack speed (uac) should have no effect on misses.
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Jean-Mii



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PostSubject: Re: Sheep Tag 7.3.1B   Fri Dec 07, 2012 8:00 am

So this new map = we can't use stomp and sheep can stack me everytime they runtag?

Either fix the stomp or I am never gonna play on this map again, I cba play vs stack without anything to counter it
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Chakra



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PostSubject: Re: Sheep Tag 7.3.1B   Fri Dec 07, 2012 8:03 am

How on earth did you come to that conclusion?
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XXXandBEER



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PostSubject: Re: Sheep Tag 7.3.1B   Fri Dec 07, 2012 8:20 am

Jean-Mii wrote:
So this new map = we can't use stomp and sheep can stack me everytime they runtag?

Either fix the stomp or I am never gonna play on this map again, I cba play vs stack without anything to counter it

Stomp works. You have to FINISH casting the ability meaning don't cancel the casting by right clicking etc. You have to wait like .01 seconds before u can move for the cast to finish. Mess around with it you'll see. Reason for this was before when it was instant it gave sheep no time to see it coming and could be used when the sheep was just run tagging way to easily.
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Jean-Mii



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PostSubject: Re: Sheep Tag 7.3.1B   Fri Dec 07, 2012 9:00 am

? so before this map my wolf became useless while using this spell for 1 second, now it becomes useless 10 seconds?
I stick to = we have no anti stack so this map suckass
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TraxxWOLF

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PostSubject: Re: Sheep Tag 7.3.1B   Fri Dec 07, 2012 3:17 pm

Add a spell that is like the anti-stack-shield. Wolves can get a aura/ w.e that repells stacks. Not a stomp/wave/etc attack.

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Night



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PostSubject: Re: Sheep Tag 7.3.1B   Sat Dec 08, 2012 10:39 am

I tested the map even further. AS i said before, with 2 hit , its not sheep tag anymore. U created a new game, a mix of bulldog st and normal sheep tag. The only skills that get awarded now is runtag and speed massing. U practically completely ruined teamwork, game understanding and map awareness. U made the map LESS skilled.


Now i fully protest against the 2 hit improvement because all it does is benefit players who like runtag and fast-paced games, not those who value coordination, teamwork, tactic.


Other things aren't balanced aswell(stack, sheep illusion) but they don't change the concept of sheep tag. With 2 hit u change both concept and gameplay dramatically.


My offered solution-> bring back 3 hit, but leave all other changes and try to balance it all out.
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CHIEFHERO[SKS]

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PostSubject: Re: Sheep Tag 7.3.1B   Sat Dec 08, 2012 11:33 am

Quote :
Night: tested the map even further. AS i said before, with 2 hit , its not sheep tag anymore. U created a new game, a mix of bulldog st and normal sheep tag. The only skills that get awarded now is runtag and speed massing. U practically completely ruined teamwork, game understanding and map awareness. U made the map LESS skilled.

creating a different gameplay doesn't sound that bad if the current one is boring as shit and has 0 attraction power Very Happy runtag and speedmassing getting rewarded is the best thing that have happened to ST in years. and the "teamwork" stuff is just bullshit. teamwork is used as an addition to individual skill. teams that teamwork will perform better than teams that don't teamwork, no matter how much individuality you add to the game. same applies to understanding and awareness.

why dont you argue that dribbling is bad for soccer since it decreases teamwork/awareness/understanding? :/ really absurd statement with no insight into how team-oriented games and sports work. its not supposed to be 100% teamwork without any chance to impact the game individually. this leads directly back to the ST map that noone enjoys. its a recipe for disaster and a one-way ticket to hell.


by all means, come with suggestions to improve/balance out the new map. reducing individuality is a bad idea and has nothing to do with teamwork/understanding/map-awareness.
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XXXandBEER



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PostSubject: Re: Sheep Tag 7.3.1B   Sat Dec 08, 2012 1:58 pm

Night wrote:
I tested the map even further. AS i said before, with 2 hit , its not sheep tag anymore. U created a new game, a mix of bulldog st and normal sheep tag. The only skills that get awarded now is runtag and speed massing. U practically completely ruined teamwork, game understanding and map awareness. U made the map LESS skilled.


Now i fully protest against the 2 hit improvement because all it does is benefit players who like runtag and fast-paced games, not those who value coordination, teamwork, tactic.


Other things aren't balanced aswell(stack, sheep illusion) but they don't change the concept of sheep tag. With 2 hit u change both concept and gameplay dramatically.


My offered solution-> bring back 3 hit, but leave all other changes and try to balance it all out.


Teamwork in sheep tag has never really existed other than in tournaments. Teamwork in sheep tag is typically bridging/double saving/giving gold/holding side as wolf. Theoretically with wolves having two hit I hardly any of this. In fact it probably increased isolations and wolfing teamwork. And as far as bridging/double saving is concerned you can still do this things. Now competitively speaking yes 2 hit may decrease teamwork in teams with more communication, but I really do not see how.

With two hit I feel teamwork is just as essential, if not more, to the game and awareness has increased ten fold. Players now must react faster to help an ally as well as predict isolation's much quicker.

I can't really see the argument of sheep tag as a different game as wolves have always been able to get 2 hit. Now since they start 2 hit it just removes that first two minutes of everyone spamming "gold me!"
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Night



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PostSubject: Re: Sheep Tag 7.3.1B   Sat Dec 08, 2012 11:44 pm

XXXandBEER wrote:
Night wrote:
I tested the map even further. AS i said before, with 2 hit , its not sheep tag anymore. U created a new game, a mix of bulldog st and normal sheep tag. The only skills that get awarded now is runtag and speed massing. U practically completely ruined teamwork, game understanding and map awareness. U made the map LESS skilled.


Now i fully protest against the 2 hit improvement because all it does is benefit players who like runtag and fast-paced games, not those who value coordination, teamwork, tactic.


Other things aren't balanced aswell(stack, sheep illusion) but they don't change the concept of sheep tag. With 2 hit u change both concept and gameplay dramatically.


My offered solution-> bring back 3 hit, but leave all other changes and try to balance it all out.


Teamwork in sheep tag has never really existed other than in tournaments. Teamwork in sheep tag is typically bridging/double saving/giving gold/holding side as wolf. Theoretically with wolves having two hit I hardly any of this. In fact it probably increased isolations and wolfing teamwork. And as far as bridging/double saving is concerned you can still do this things. Now competitively speaking yes 2 hit may decrease teamwork in teams with more communication, but I really do not see how.

With two hit I feel teamwork is just as essential, if not more, to the game and awareness has increased ten fold. Players now must react faster to help an ally as well as predict isolation's much quicker.

I can't really see the argument of sheep tag as a different game as wolves have always been able to get 2 hit. Now since they start 2 hit it just removes that first two minutes of everyone spamming "gold me!"

As i said before, TEamwork is practically NON existant now. You claim its more essential, i claim that in this map Your individual runtag and massing skills are essential. From what i saw, its practically IMPOSSIBLE to survive whole round, because someone will get isolated no matter what u do. Hell , i even played with afker 4v4 against decent players like drew, skill ownz and so on and i still won in 5 minutes.


Maybe this game is fun to play sometimes, like we did with bulldog st. But it can't be the main map. THe only people who enjoy this are either low iq or low skilled players. Most of people on bnet DESPISE this map and want critical changes.

Also LUCK factor has increased dramatically. its practically impossible to avoid isolations, so u are completely dependant on your runtag/isolation escape skills and wolf ability to take his side. there is no goddamn map awareness / teamwork skills. ONE of your allies will get isolated and die if wolves dont make major mistakes. Ofc there are exceptions, because athamyr and simba can't take their sides and i bridge the ally, but as i said before, its completely depedant on whether wolves fail or not. IN normal map, if you are skilled , u can still bridge your ally with wolves not failing , in the current one, its practically all out of luck.

Luck factor is high, skill factor is low. This is the current map. Mainly because of 2 hit, rest of changes don't really change the concept of st, they only improve individual skill.


And beer one more thing, 80% of ALL bnet respected and well skilled players disagree with new map. If you keep making these changes u might aswell destroy sheep tag once again.
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CHIEFHERO[SKS]

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PostSubject: Re: Sheep Tag 7.3.1B   Sun Dec 09, 2012 2:24 am

all respected players agree with everything beer is doing. the map probably needs alot of work, but you're the ONLY one here who wants to build purely towards teamwork and reduce individuality, massingspeed factor and impact you can do with runtag.



beer dont listen to the noise. changing gameplay to the better is something you're gonna have to work towards, it doesn't happen over night(pun intended!). everything is gonna be ruined if you start catering to needs that aren't justified in ANY way. most of the stuff night said works the complete opposite way.. ''we increased individuality and removed teamwork...its luck now!!! skill before!!" lol.. how can someone say something like this, especially after saying that runtag and massing speed is the most important things now Very Happy

beer, notice also that night sais massing speed and runtag are important and increased now. this is EXACTLY what shoop was trying to achieve 2 weeks ago, except you did it the right way (by making runtag skills and massing skills necessary to survive, while shoop tried to just make it incredibly easy for every in order to increase it). and shoop dislikes the map for some reason. this is why people don't agree with shoop/drew visions = they are inconsistent and change their ST vision based on whatever will make them perform better.

keep up the good work!
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Shoop

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PostSubject: Re: Sheep Tag 7.3.1B   Sun Dec 09, 2012 2:50 am

No, all "respected players" does not agree. Infact most people seem to question the methods AND the changes.

Also, I dont change my vision of ST based on what makes me a better player. If that were true Id advocate for adding an IQ test.

So amir, stop making claims you cant back up. Its really tiring trying to discuss with someone who just makes statements out of the blue.

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Night



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PostSubject: Re: Sheep Tag 7.3.1B   Sun Dec 09, 2012 3:53 am

CHIEFHERO[SKS] wrote:
all respected players agree with everything beer is doing. the map probably needs alot of work, but you're the ONLY one here who wants to build purely towards teamwork and reduce individuality, massingspeed factor and impact you can do with runtag.



beer dont listen to the noise. changing gameplay to the better is something you're gonna have to work towards, it doesn't happen over night(pun intended!). everything is gonna be ruined if you start catering to needs that aren't justified in ANY way. most of the stuff night said works the complete opposite way.. ''we increased individuality and removed teamwork...its luck now!!! skill before!!" lol.. how can someone say something like this, especially after saying that runtag and massing speed is the most important things now Very Happy

beer, notice also that night sais massing speed and runtag are important and increased now. this is EXACTLY what shoop was trying to achieve 2 weeks ago, except you did it the right way (by making runtag skills and massing skills necessary to survive, while shoop tried to just make it incredibly easy for every in order to increase it). and shoop dislikes the map for some reason. this is why people don't agree with shoop/drew visions = they are inconsistent and change their ST vision based on whatever will make them perform better.

keep up the good work!

i highely suggest you to play the map and see for yourself. AS I said before the only SKILL that is rewarded now is individual skill. IN map before both individual and teamwork skills were important, now its 90% individual and 10 % teamwork. This is the biggest problem in the map. People like exalius are down in TOILET now because their main strength was teamwork and stable gameplay, which is non-existant in current map. Does that make them low-skilled players? Before both individual and team players could shine(its irrelevant if the map was unbalanced and needed changes, im talking in general gameplay).

Therefore, removing 2 hit would solve ALL the problems. U can keep all other changes and try to balance them out. There are enough of ways for individual skill to shine without 2 hit. Somehow amir had no problem when there was stack map with 3 hits in 2007, NOW he claims otherwise ^^ . BOOM

Beer think about it. Amir claims none of the respected players are against new map, but it seems like only u and beer support it.
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Chakra



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PostSubject: Re: Sheep Tag 7.3.1B   Sun Dec 09, 2012 6:39 am

Silly Night.

Whenever dramatic changes are done, it takes weeks to adjust. Making farms two hit should increase teamwork mastery: it means sheep need to be more vigilant in both watching and saving their allies. The reason this hasn't happened? Because sheep have yet to adjust. They will. Just like they adjusted to the removal of stack farms--if you remember, when we removed stack farms, it turned into a complete save fest: now it isn't.

So too will sheep adjust to two hits.


However, I finally did manage to play the map (strange, 100% Americans and we play on Euro bot...), and I'd suggest increasing base cooldown to say 1.75s instead of 1.5s (note agility still provides a 44% IaS). This will further emphasize the use of gloves over claws and give sheep some buff. If it proves to be too long a cooldown, it can easily be decreased.
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CHIEFHERO[SKS]

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PostSubject: Re: Sheep Tag 7.3.1B   Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:05 am

night you don't get it. you don't have to choose between teamwork and individuality. i think you misunderstand what we mean with individuality ^^ teamwork is a constant. i repeat, no matter how much individuality you add = teams that teamwork will outperform teams that dont teamwork, and players that use individual skills to help their team(aka teamwork) = will do better than players that run a solo-show.

i never said that the map is good though. but the concept and ideas that beer is trying to incorporate into the map is considered positive by most respected players. the solution is to fine-tune the map and find the right values, NOT to go backwards to the outdated map that noone enjoys anymore.

to keep it short; yes, players who's only ability in sheeptag is ''teamwork'' are bad and shouldn't win any games. you have to bring more to the table than this. atleast that's the ST i want to build.



Quote :
Somehow amir had no problem when there was stack map with 3 hits in 2007, NOW he claims otherwise ^^ . BOOM
can someone translate this?


Last edited by CHIEFHERO[SKS] on Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:40 am; edited 2 times in total
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