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 Sheep Tag 7.3.0B

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XXXandBEER



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PostSubject: Re: Sheep Tag 7.3.0B   Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:36 am

Shoop wrote:
Do you mind me asking you this though, do you think "adding more mastery" is always good?

As long as it creates mastery for both sheep and wolf yes.
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CHIEFHERO[SKS]

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PostSubject: Re: Sheep Tag 7.3.0B   Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:56 am

amir position: a simple assumption - increased mastery is good. most people agree that increased mastery is good, and every change can objectively be justified or rejected through this basic assumption.

shoop position: play russian roulette and hope you survive. run to the mapmaker, say "golems is boring!!" and hope that he goes along. if he doesn't, stop playing.



ye, increased mastery is always good. the more mastery = the bigger fanbase of the gameplay.
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PostSubject: Re: Sheep Tag 7.3.0B   Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:58 am

If you dont mind amir, let me write what I stand for and you can write what you stand for okey?

So you think adding mastery is always good?

Are you then in favour of adding doomguards?
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PostSubject: Re: Sheep Tag 7.3.0B   Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:03 pm

russian roulette is exactly what you stand for based on your posts so far.



history lesson; the reason revo BULLDOZED the behhmap and the ROTS map in 2005 was??? can anyone make a wild guess? MORE MASTERY ^^ YaBaDaBaDooo
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XXXandBEER



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PostSubject: Re: Sheep Tag 7.3.0B   Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:14 pm

Shoop wrote:
Are you then in favour of adding doomguards?

I know this is directed to amir, but based on WHAT I said which is as long as it adds mastery for sheep and wolves. Then it depends on what kind of doomguard

Good Ex. Doomguard that works like golem
Adds mastery for sheep as they need to practice dodging and avoiding the doomguard
Adds mastery for wolves as they need to know when to use said doomguard
Since it adds mastery to both it is a good thing to add, but we already have it and its called a golem

Bad Ex. Doomguard that can fly and cast spells that can kill sheep
This does not add any mastery for sheep as there is nothing the sheep can do to avoid dieing to said doomguard
Slightly adds mastery to wolves as they have to use spells and control the doomguard properly
Since it only adds mastery to wolves it should not be added because it provides nothing for the sheep to mastery to counter it

Good Ex. Invis
Adds mastery to sheep as now they have to use stack farms or increase their map awareness to dodge said invis
Adds mastery to wolf as now they have to position themselves properly to kill an unexpected sheep
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PostSubject: Re: Sheep Tag 7.3.0B   Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:18 pm

First of all Beer, you are telling us that we are ur beta team, that we have to give you hints on what to do etc. That is exactly what we are doing. We are not "hating". It might sound like "hating" cus some ideas are in some of ours eyes horrible Razz.


1) I really dont get the sheep illusion thing.. you say "Adds mind games and strategy for sheep" & "it makes you able to double save urself".

Firstly i think double saving is supposed to be a team-thingy. For me it's not double as in two units - it's double as in two persons helping each other to save. Secondly, to add fun and mind games you could add teleports on map (around middle for doublesave), you could give each wolf special abilities - super strong, invis, ranger - and WOPS we have rots. I really think this is a dumb idea.

2) If adding two-hit-farms changed the entire game we know why would we keep it?

I see sheeptag as chess. In chess you have the EXACT same conditions EVERY game. The same "terrain" and the same units. Although there are 1000000 strategies in chess created by the players - it's the exact same thing with sheep tag. WE have created doublesaving and teamplaying from not using it. I love it that way, i love that we create our own tactics from "the same old map". I mean, every month, atleast every second month something new is realised and spread around STC. Take redirection for an example. I don't think changing the map to much in to short of time will help ST to grow but it will kill what I, and I think many others, actually think sheep tag is. And to end - people still play chess although it has the same conditions every time you play it.

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PostSubject: Re: Sheep Tag 7.3.0B   Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:41 pm

Amir
No I dont want russian roulette. I simply dont want invis for reasons explained tons of times. Here is one of them :

Shoop wrote:
I think everyone will agree that the 2-20 problem have drasticly decreased since we started to play without invis. It is time for people to start analyzing the full effects of the items. Its not just a matter about if like to use invis or not. If that was the case, then obviously we should keep it. But it is also a matter of what effect someone using invis has on other players, and the mere threat of invis, what effect it has on the sheep. They have to mass more carefull and take less risks. I want to be forced to take more risks, I want more action, both as sheep and as wolf, and if we are going to get that we must encourage risktaking and decourage safemassing. Invis does the opposite.

BEER, so mastery is always good as long as it adds mastery to both sheep and wolf and as long as it doesnt already exists in the map?

Note that none of amir and BEER have given any arguments to why mastery always is good, why its not good if it just adds mastery to one of the wolf/sheep and why its not good if it already exist in their map. Their way of arguing is simply stating that it is.

But ok, what about adding Mirana arrow from dota BEER? It adds mastery for the wolves as they have to aim and time the arrows and it adds mastery for the sheep as they have to dodge arrows and predict them.
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PostSubject: Re: Sheep Tag 7.3.0B   Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:42 pm

TraxxWOLF wrote:
First of all Beer, you are telling us that we are ur beta team, that we have to give you hints on what to do etc. That is exactly what we are doing. We are not "hating". It might sound like "hating" cus some ideas are in some of ours eyes horrible Razz.


1) I really dont get the sheep illusion thing.. you say "Adds mind games and strategy for sheep" & "it makes you able to double save urself".

Firstly i think double saving is supposed to be a team-thingy. For me it's not double as in two units - it's double as in two persons helping each other to save. Secondly, to add fun and mind games you could add teleports on map (around middle for doublesave), you could give each wolf special abilities - super strong, invis, ranger - and WOPS we have rots. I really think this is a dumb idea.

2) If adding two-hit-farms changed the entire game we know why would we keep it?

I see sheeptag as chess. In chess you have the EXACT same conditions EVERY game. The same "terrain" and the same units. Although there are 1000000 strategies in chess created by the players - it's the exact same thing with sheep tag. WE have created doublesaving and teamplaying from not using it. I love it that way, i love that we create our own tactics from "the same old map". I mean, every month, atleast every second month something new is realised and spread around STC. Take redirection for an example. I don't think changing the map to much in to short of time will help ST to grow but it will kill what I, and I think many others, actually think sheep tag is. And to end - people still play chess although it has the same conditions every time you play it.

First off people changed chess thousands of times its called checkers or any other board game.

Secondly if people really don't like sheep illusion I'll remove it. It was just an idea of mine that I thought wouldn't be a big deal since you hardly ever see invisibility farm as it is.

As for two hit it keeps the game exactly the same just makes it faster. Traxx if we never made changes to sheep tag then we would still have load farm, level system, and 9v3 sheep tag. Changes are what shape the game and to say you shouldn't change sheep tag makes no sense as we would never be playing revo. Its the a combination of over 10000 different maps that have formed the map we use today. And i intend on continuing this forming hopefully in the positive direction as long as people take my ideas seriously and don't say "ZOMG ADD TELEPORTS AND GIVE WOLVES RANGE" comments like those make no sense as a simple sheep illusion is by no means anything like that you realize wolves have mirror image YES? So i take mirror image out is what you want right?


Last edited by XXXandBEER on Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Sheep Tag 7.3.0B   Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:44 pm

Shoop wrote:
But ok, what about adding Mirana arrow from dota BEER? It adds mastery for the wolves as they have to aim and time the arrows and it adds mastery for the sheep as they have to dodge arrows and predict them.

Sure why not it would take some balancing such as speed of the arrow and should farms block it etc. But I see nothing wrong with adding this item.

Mastery is good because people like being able to call themselves "the master" of something and the more mastery in a game then the more happy players.
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PostSubject: Re: Sheep Tag 7.3.0B   Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:49 pm

XXXandBEER wrote:
Shoop wrote:
But ok, what about adding Mirana arrow from dota BEER? It adds mastery for the wolves as they have to aim and time the arrows and it adds mastery for the sheep as they have to dodge arrows and predict them.

Sure why not it would take some balancing such as speed of the arrow and should farms block it etc. But I see nothing wrong with adding this item.

Mastery is good because people like being able to call themselves "the master" of something and the more mastery in a game then the more happy players.

Ok, you should add mirana arrow then. If your theory is correct people will appriciate it.

Btw, if mastery is good beacause people like to call themselves "the master", isnt all mastery good then? Regardless if it already exists in the map and regardless if it adds mastery to both sheep and wolf?
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PostSubject: Re: Sheep Tag 7.3.0B   Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:57 pm

Shoop wrote:
XXXandBEER wrote:
Shoop wrote:
But ok, what about adding Mirana arrow from dota BEER? It adds mastery for the wolves as they have to aim and time the arrows and it adds mastery for the sheep as they have to dodge arrows and predict them.

Sure why not it would take some balancing such as speed of the arrow and should farms block it etc. But I see nothing wrong with adding this item.

Mastery is good because people like being able to call themselves "the master" of something and the more mastery in a game then the more happy players.

Ok, you should add mirana arrow then. If your theory is correct people will appriciate it.

Btw, if mastery is good beacause people like to call themselves "the master", isnt all mastery good then? Regardless if it already exists in the map and regardless if it adds mastery to both sheep and wolf?

All mastery is good but not all mastery should be added

god shoop stop asking so many question logic is easy Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Sheep Tag 7.3.0B   Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:05 pm

So how do we know what mastery should be added? And how do we know invis fullfills these criterias?
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XXXandBEER



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PostSubject: Re: Sheep Tag 7.3.0B   Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:07 pm

Mastery should be added if provides mastery for both sheep and wolf you have yet to disprove this o.O

Now this is all in conjunction that you want to add fluff to your game and make your game filled with different strategies and ideas.
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PostSubject: Re: Sheep Tag 7.3.0B   Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:13 pm

Quote :
Shoop: Amir
No I dont want russian roulette. I simply dont want invis for reasons explained tons of times. Here is one of them :

Quote :
Shoop wrote:
I think everyone will agree that the 2-20 problem have drasticly decreased since we started to play without invis. It is time for people to start analyzing the full effects of the items. Its not just a matter about if like to use invis or not. If that was the case, then obviously we should keep it. But it is also a matter of what effect someone using invis has on other players, and the mere threat of invis, what effect it has on the sheep. They have to mass more carefull and take less risks. I want to be forced to take more risks, I want more action, both as sheep and as wolf, and if we are going to get that we must encourage risktaking and decourage safemassing. Invis does the opposite.
this is russian roulette. noone knows WHAT you're trying to achieve. increasing runtag is only an argument when its applied to the invis for some reason. applying it to golems/speedpotion/boots/whatever mysteriously doesn't work. you have no objective goals and this whole quote is one long subjective argument. you should have just said ''invis is boring'' and saved some time.

do you think that we should aim to increase runtag consistently? or you want to personally decide when we should stop increasing runtag, when we have enough mastery, what sorts of mastery is good, and everything else?

or how should beer decide when we have enough runtag? what would your reply be if he said "we have enough runtag and the ammount of safemassing is fine" to this bigass quote above?

Quote :
Note that none of amir and BEER have given any arguments to why mastery always is good, why its not good if it just adds mastery to one of the wolf/sheep and why its not good if it already exist in their map. Their way of arguing is simply stating that it is.
this is the assumption/premiss. we want to increase mastery. you have to start with an assumption. mastery premiss is simple: we want talented players to perform better than untalented players.

you on the other hand are playing russian roulette. sometimes you wanna increase mastery, sometimes you dont. sometimes you wanna increase runtag, sometimes you dont. really crazy stuff. you're making it impossible for the mapmaker to objectively evaluate arguments for either side, and inconsistent changes are inevitable.
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PostSubject: Re: Sheep Tag 7.3.0B   Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:17 pm

I dont claim to know what level of runtag is perfect for sheeptag, but I think its too little with invis and too much in runtag games.

I still wait for actual arguments for why mastery always is positive from your side. Or do you agree with BEER its not always good?
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PostSubject: Re: Sheep Tag 7.3.0B   Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:52 pm

mastery is always positive. its YOU who has to tell us why mastery isn't always good. i think we both agree that some mastery is good. you're the one making additional claims about it not being good in certain situations. you haven't identified any situations where inreased mastery would be bad, and you haven't explained why mastery is only good sometimes, but not always.

i think mastery is fundamentally good. if doom-blink or whatever you suggested really does increase mastery = np adding it.



i imagine drew and shoop sitting on a ST panel in 2002, discussing map ideas with the mapmaker ^^ ''yeah sure, its gonna be a REALLY good idea to add farms that shoot out snow that slows wolves!! haha ROTS 2.0!!" lol Very Happy "yeah mapmaker... bank-farms are really good idea.. lets also add police farms? maybe an ambulance-farm Razz?".

"why dont u add X on the basis of mastery then!" = meaningless statements from shoop/drew, designed to gather support by suggesting bizzare ideas (which usually reduce mastery). but ofc they don't explain why these adittions are infact bad.
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PostSubject: Re: Sheep Tag 7.3.0B   Wed Dec 05, 2012 5:07 pm

If adding invis is "adding mastery" then its a situation where I think "adding mastery" is bad.
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PostSubject: Re: Sheep Tag 7.3.0B   Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:01 pm

CHIEFHERO[SKS] wrote:
i imagine drew and shoop sitting on a ST panel in 2002, discussing map ideas with the mapmaker ^^ ''yeah sure, its gonna be a REALLY good idea to add farms that shoot out snow that slows wolves!! haha ROTS 2.0!!" lol Very Happy "yeah mapmaker... bank-farms are really good idea.. lets also add police farms? maybe an ambulance-farm Razz?".

This couldn't be more true when I try to add something that has never been in sheep tag before. xD
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PostSubject: Re: Sheep Tag 7.3.0B   Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:31 am

XXXandBEER wrote:
e sheep illusion is by no means anything like that you realize wolves have mirror image YES? So i take mirror image out is what you want right?

So by ur logics making wolves as big as sheep so the could walk through farms is a not major change to map just because "you do realise SHEEP CAn Go ThRoUGh 0.5 spaces, you want me to remove thaT?!?!??".

I started all my posts with telling you how much I like many of ur changes and that i really enjoy having an active and good map maker. It's just that you change to much in to little time (I know you do this for fun).

But I do think that you should maybe put a major change into game and then let people play, experience and give you feedback. Then if people thought it was a good change, you add it and maybe try next thing next version.

This will be easier for everyone, for the players to actually feel the difference of a change and for you to not get spammed. I mean, people might hate the new map cus of sheep illu but blame you for 2hit or runes that actually is good for the map.

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PostSubject: Re: Sheep Tag 7.3.0B   Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:12 am

TraxxWOLF wrote:
This will be easier for everyone, for the players to actually feel the difference of a change and for you to not get spammed. I mean, people might hate the new map cus of sheep illu but blame you for 2hit or runes that actually is good for the map.

I realize a lot of the changes came at once, but the changes went hand in hand.

For instance since wolves now have 2 hit. I re-added stack, increased wolf spawn time, and increased sheep gold generation to give sheep a nice head start since there will be more iso situations. Since stack was back then that opened the return of invis because now sheep can use stack farms as a solid counter to it. Which then led to the anti stack stomp to give wolves a lil more of a counter to stacks.

But yes sheep illusion could have waited and probably needs a slight nerf. But it really isnt that big of a deal it just makes an illusion of your sheep that can be countered with a simple -buy sheep.
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PostSubject: Re: Sheep Tag 7.3.0B   Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:20 pm

played some 2n4/3n5 with new map today. games were much faster and there were a lot more isolations. wolf was much more enjoyable and sheep was intense. one major bug was that if the shepherd stomped and killed the sheep before the effect wore off, the sheep will not have stack in its building arsenal forever. overall, first impressions are overall pretty good. curious to see how this map will work for bigger games
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PostSubject: Re: Sheep Tag 7.3.0B   Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:52 pm

I find it quite humorous when Amir appeals to the past for examples and jokes, primary because he wasn't part of the past. Even when making exaggeration, the complete failure to grasp it shows.

For example:
Quote :
history lesson; the reason revo BULLDOZED the behhmap and the ROTS map in 2005 was??? can anyone make a wild guess? MORE MASTERY ^^ YaBaDaBaDooo
I suppose it might sound very logical when you weren't around in 2005, but the rest of us are confused by the dates and versions. ReVo wasn't even announced until August of 2006. Hell, not even Sheep Tag Custom--the first GosuSheep map with in-game remakes--existed until April of 2006.
The international community didn't even really form until 2006. If Behh was taken out, it was taken out by plain old ReBorn.

history lesson; the reason nazis BULLDOZED the aztecempire and MONKEY empire in 3000 was??? can anyone make a wild guess? MORE NAVAL POWER ^^ YaBaDaBaDooo


Amir follows up with another joke about the past, claiming Shoop played, ST panels existed, a ST-map monopoly existed, and that ROTS 1.0 came before 2002. Throw away the year, this is like a joke bringing in flat earth theory, Elvis Presley, fall of Ottoman empire all together and blaming it on Obama and Clinton.
But it was a joke, so w/e.



I would make a real post about how mastery can't be the high-all end-all goal because it in itself is not a infallible, as illustrated by Shoop's Mirana arrow, and even Beer's consolidation that, "Mastery is good because ... the more mastery in a game then the more happy players," suggesting that "happy players" is the goal rather mastery (surprising, I know). I would then continue to explain, as I've done before already, that "happy players," or as I called it, an enjoyment factor, is the highest goals a game can be developed towards. Amir will say this is subjective, and that we need an objective measurement. I'll ignore the fact that mastery lacks any system of measurements (is it km^2/capita/s? j^E(3^s(m^2))/(C+s)? perhaps (average gold)/sheep/(US population)+(farm count)^2?), and then suggest that since enjoyment is so hard to measure, we break it down into component parts, such as frustration (spawned by inability to counter actions, inability to effect the game [2-20 problem], etc), challenge (i.e., mastery), speed (how fast the game is going, bare minimum apm required to be good, etc), and an array of other factors.
Amir would then pick one, or even a subcategory, and attack it. He'll elevate the small component to being the goal (instead of enjoyment).
Then the thread will derail into mindless bickering and shit.


Beer:
Getting claws from the start, when they make no effect until you stack four, should be very far from a real strategy. This is an exact illustration 2-20 problem, or more specifically will be when sheep learn to (or they are buffed so they) use gold from the outset to counter two hits. Median strategies, or item paths, should exist in which the first items acquired should be logical to get. This would include gloves, boots of speed, etc. Spend 500 or w/e gold to see any buff is ridiculous and shouldn't be the concept.
If anything, combine pure damage items with existing items. Perhaps introduce splashing items (only targeting farms), chain lightning on attack, etc. Perhaps items that allow you to cast AoE spells (not Blizzard, but like Death and Decay) ultimately every x seconds or w/e. Claws are boring.

Oh, and probably upgrade Upgrade Farms.
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PostSubject: Re: Sheep Tag 7.3.0B   Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:09 pm

Chakra just stfu no one fucking cares u were a shit map maker and so was gosusheep just let beer do his thing cuz hes doing a lot better job than u ever have
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PostSubject: Re: Sheep Tag 7.3.0B   Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:35 pm

Chakra wrote:

Beer:
Getting claws from the start, when they make no effect until you stack four, should be very far from a real strategy. This is an exact illustration 2-20 problem, or more specifically will be when sheep learn to (or they are buffed so they) use gold from the outset to counter two hits. Median strategies, or item paths, should exist in which the first items acquired should be logical to get. This would include gloves, boots of speed, etc. Spend 500 or w/e gold to see any buff is ridiculous and shouldn't be the concept.
If anything, combine pure damage items with existing items. Perhaps introduce splashing items (only targeting farms), chain lightning on attack, etc. Perhaps items that allow you to cast AoE spells (not Blizzard, but like Death and Decay) ultimately every x seconds or w/e. Claws are boring.

Oh, and probably upgrade Upgrade Farms.

Yes having to get 500 gold before you achieve an actual buff is quite absurd and right now its currently the best option. I'm actually working on a chain of lightning on attack item, ionic spark, and also death and decay > blizzard is a great idea. I would also like to figure out how to change the AoE so its not a circle and make it a line. So instead of cutting a circle of farms you cut a line of farms. Claws are not boring and should still be the primary focus for 1 wolf, but other wolves that don't get 1 hit should be able to get items that make them feel more powerful.
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PostSubject: Re: Sheep Tag 7.3.0B   Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:49 pm

Quote :
Couldn't trigger it properly I originally did want the sheep to be able to kill farms @Chakra if you know a units kills item event let me know
What did you mean? Isn't the logical thing to make it so sheep simply can't target items?
Combat - Attack 1 - Targets Allowed (ua1g): remove "Item"
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