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 Football - Who has the advantage?

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Effloresce

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PostSubject: Football - Who has the advantage?   Sun Jan 29, 2012 7:52 am

Who has the advantage here? Top half or bottom half? What's your reasoning?


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Madhatters

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PostSubject: Re: Football - Who has the advantage?   Sun Jan 29, 2012 8:45 am

Bottom assuming that we aren't factoring in weariness.

Shooting/passing/maintaining control when the ball is rolling down hill would be pretty much impossible where going uphill would pretty much just make it tire you out faster.
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CHIEFHERO[SKS]

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PostSubject: Re: Football - Who has the advantage?   Sun Jan 29, 2012 9:00 am

weariness is the same, both teams have to run up and down.

problem with being on the top = its harder to score. you can't shoot downwards.

passing is easier for bottom half. ball will outrun the players if you do long passes downhill.

bottom keeper also has advantage because he's taller relative to the goal. it would be easier to shoot over the top keeper unless both keepers stand on the goal-line.

bottom got advantage.
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XXXandBEER



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PostSubject: Re: Football - Who has the advantage?   Sun Jan 29, 2012 10:18 am

CHIEFHERO[SKS] wrote:
weariness is the same, both teams have to run up and down.

problem with being on the top = its harder to score. you can't shoot downwards.

passing is easier for bottom half. ball will outrun the players if you do long passes downhill.

bottom keeper also has advantage because he's taller relative to the goal. it would be easier to shoot over the top keeper unless both keepers stand on the goal-line.

bottom got advantage.

I dont think so how does the bottom team score? Do you know how hard it would be to shoot uphill the goalie would easily stop it also shooting downward = so much faster and easier imo top keep has advantage and therefore top half is easier. Only bad thing about top is passing amir said. And stop saying weariness is the same its much easier going down then up... and clearly the top team will be going down more often whereas the other team has to defend going up.
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Shoop

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PostSubject: Re: Football - Who has the advantage?   Sun Jan 29, 2012 10:29 am

It would be impossible to score for both teams lol.
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TraxxWOLF

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PostSubject: Re: Football - Who has the advantage?   Mon Jan 30, 2012 4:09 am

Shoop wrote:
It would be impossible to score for both teams lol.

It'd be extremly much easier to defend being top team. They can just stand there pushing ball aside when slowmotion-runs are coming Razz.

If you just shoot the ball downhill from top it will get an EXTREME speed and epic jumps, some shot in 90 mins should be a goal Very Happy
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Shoop

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PostSubject: Re: Football - Who has the advantage?   Mon Jan 30, 2012 6:13 am

Well obviously the top team has the advantage, but all games would still end 0-0 if both teams are good.
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Night



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PostSubject: Re: Football - Who has the advantage?   Mon Jan 30, 2012 7:24 am

In this situation luck factor is high. for example a lucky shot from a top side to the bottom could be a goal due to insane speed it would make, impossible to react.

Bottom has almost 0 chance to score while top has approx 2-3% chance. Conclusion-> 97/100 games would end in a draw while 3/100 would be won by top side.
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Madhatters

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PostSubject: Re: Football - Who has the advantage?   Mon Jan 30, 2012 7:51 am

Not sure where you are getting this "insane speed" idea. The only extra speed the ball would have would be due to gravity and would be in a downwards direction, it wouldn't make the ball move faster parallel to the ground. I guess the ball might take a lucky bounce and get by a retarded goalkeeper, but that is assuming that the top can even get a good shot off(ever try kicking a ball as it was rolling down hill and you were chasing it with a defender in front of you?).

The reasons me and amir gave way more than balance out this luck factor.
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Chakra



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PostSubject: Re: Football - Who has the advantage?   Mon Jan 30, 2012 4:21 pm

Quote :
The only extra speed the ball would have would be due to gravity and would be in a downwards direction, it wouldn't make the ball move faster parallel to the ground.
According to my calculations, the ball (when going downwards) will have have an increase due to gravity... about 3.35m/s^2. So if a player kicks the ball from ~30m away... and say the ball normally would be traveling at 90km/hr, it would instead be traveling at ~102km/hr.

So yeah, it has an effect.
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Madhatters

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PostSubject: Re: Football - Who has the advantage?   Mon Jan 30, 2012 5:20 pm

How did you get that number? Gravity is ~-10 m/s^2 going down but doesn't affect the horizontal speed of the ball. If two players were both to kick a ball from the 50 yard line, one going up one going down, the player kicking down could hit a harder shot because he doesn't have to worry about hitting the ground I guess(if we then factor in he has to chase the ball and worry about kicking it over the goal, it more than balances out), but other than that the ball won't reach the goal faster because he is kicking downhill.
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Chakra



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PostSubject: Re: Football - Who has the advantage?   Mon Jan 30, 2012 7:05 pm

While gravity does go directly down, you must realize the field isn't horizontal, but on an incline. Looking at the picture, I figured the incline is ~20 degrees (I actually skewed it and hovered a protractor over it, very near 20 degrees). I then took the acceleration due to gravity (9.8m/s^s) and vectorized it in vertical and horizontal components relative to the incline. This gives me a vertical acceleration (straight down, relative to the field, NOT "ground") of 9.2m/s^s (9.8*cos(20 degree)) and horizontal (again, relative to the field) component of 3.35m/s^s (9.8*cos(20 degree)).

So we get a 3.35m/s/s horizontal acceleration due to gravity on the ball.

Now I don't take the initial velocity of the ball, but instead take the theoretically end speed under normal circumstances (the field not being on an incline) because calculating in the wind resistance would be silly horsework. I picked a somewhat standard 90km/hr (after a little googling, this should be OK) and an arbitrary distance of 30m (IDK how far they normally are when kicking, let's go with 30!). Convert 90km/hr to m/s and I get 25m/s.

It will take ABOUT a second for the ball to travel 30m (it ENDS at 25m/s normally, it starts faster; also note that it will now increase instead of decrease (until it reaches a terminal air/friction velocity)). So let the 3.35m/s/s acceleration act for a second and we get an increase of about 3.35 to the 25m/s.

25 + 3.35 = 28.35m/s, convert back to km/hr, we get 102.06km/hr. I rounded to 102. Very Happy


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CHIEFHERO[SKS]

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PostSubject: Re: Football - Who has the advantage?   Mon Jan 30, 2012 8:32 pm

its quite obvious that the ball travels faster downwards than upwards. anyone who has had basic vector math sees that instantly.

i dont care about the specific angle the shit is tilted or the precise speed the ball travels. im thinking more about the overall idea of playing uphill vs downhill. goals are not usually scored by ball-speed, but by accuracy. its insanely hard to shoot accurately downhill while, in comparison, its easy to shoot accurately uphill. the speed needed to score can be achieved uphill. the bottom half will have an easier time scoring based on that.




passing accurately and shooting accurately is easier when attacking uphill than downhill, and this is the most important factors. weariness and disadvantage of running uphill is shared by both teams(the upper team has to run upwards when defending, ye? and bottom team has an easier time gathering their forces in defense). so what reason is there to assume that the top half has the advantage other than ball-speed from gravity(which is a disadvantage for the top team if they are trying to pass the ball accurately, and not randomly shoot at the goal)?
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e8lakes

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PostSubject: Re: Football - Who has the advantage?   Tue Jan 31, 2012 12:03 am

the top team would win for one easy reason:

corner kicks, it's quiet obvious that the bottom team might lose the ball, because it's just rolling away and the top team gets a standard-situation from the bottom corner in front of the bottom goal and has nearly normal chance to strike, but the top team won't really ever kick off the ball at top.
It's an easy lame tactic the top team will win with nearly every game. The bottom team can't do much about it, because if they attack they have the ball in front of them looking upwards (ball directed to the enemy player), so the enemy player can easily prevent the other team running up. The only option the bottom team has is to turn their back to the top team team, but then the ball simply rolls downhill and the top team get's another corner kick.
Another advantage the top team has is that they can move downhill with their back first, so the ball is somewhat protected and not rolling away. If you try to pass uphill you have the ball to roll in a bow-form, because your teammate can't take the ball if he's looking downhill for the easy reason that the ball would just roll away so the ball, again, is easy to get for the top team.
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DivineRight

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PostSubject: Re: Football - Who has the advantage?   Tue Jan 31, 2012 7:46 am

It depends, which team has ronaldo on it?
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SrborjaRANK1



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PostSubject: Re: Football - Who has the advantage?   Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:40 pm

Top part is easier, no need to be Einstein to find that out. Bottom part cant score, while top part, can put few players on the bottom part, do some long passes and make some goals. Also its easier to go through defenders going downhill than uphill.
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