The STC Forum

www.sheeptagforum.tk or http://sheeptag.forumphpbb.com/
 
HomeHome  SearchSearch  MemberlistMemberlist  UsergroupsUsergroups  RegisterRegister  Log in  

Share | 
 

 Remove Cashfarm?

View previous topic View next topic Go down 
AuthorMessage
Shoop

avatar

Posts : 753
Join date : 2012-01-20

PostSubject: Remove Cashfarm?   Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:35 am

Why do we have this farm? It adds no gamevalue, infact it reduces the gamevalue. Assuming you invest in cashfarm you give up gold(=advantage in start) for gold(=advantage) later in game. This is the opposite of we want. Infact this is one of the biggest problems in sheeptag. A team investing early on in cashfarm risk dying very quickly beacause they do not have the gold to defend themselves with, but on the other hand IF they survive they are basicly impossible to kill in the end leading to games either being too quick to be fun or really boring for everyone beacause the wolves have no chance.

We should remove cashfarm and balance it out in a way so that the wolves have a good chance in both early-, mid- and lategame but also so that a good sheep dont have to depend on having shitloads of gold and allies who dont die in order to make a good performance. We need to shift focus back from goldspending and riskmanagement to actual sheep tag skill - massingspeed, runtag and gameintelligence.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Madhatters

avatar

Posts : 81
Join date : 2012-01-21

PostSubject: Re: Remove Cashfarm?   Thu Jan 26, 2012 12:38 pm

I say lets go a few steps further and remove all farms(except the regular farm ofc) and items. This way it will be pure massingspeed runtag and gameintelligence.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
XXXandBEER



Posts : 424
Join date : 2012-01-23

PostSubject: Re: Remove Cashfarm?   Thu Jan 26, 2012 5:51 pm

If we did it this way it would be IMPOSSIBLE for sheep to last longer then 10 minutes
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Shoop

avatar

Posts : 753
Join date : 2012-01-20

PostSubject: Re: Remove Cashfarm?   Thu Jan 26, 2012 9:29 pm

Shoop wrote:

We should remove cashfarm and balance it out in a way so that the wolves have a good chance in both early-, mid- and lategame but also so that a good sheep dont have to depend on having shitloads of gold and allies who dont die in order to make a good performance.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
CHIEFHERO[SKS]

avatar

Posts : 608
Join date : 2012-01-21

PostSubject: Re: Remove Cashfarm?   Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:39 pm

i think this idea is interesting given that we also add some of the other ideas shoop/others have had. remove goldsharing for wolfs, and remove claws from shops. let wolfs get progressively stronger throughout the game(time-based) + the individual gold they get from cutting shit = goes for golems and str potions. remove invis as well. we can also remove that piece of shit sentry farm.

this would have some positive impacts on gameplay (golems/str being worth getting again, influence/power spread throughout the wolf team, room for other farms etc etc).





but shoop, give me the theory on this. isn't it true that with the cash-farm(and the option to pool wolfs), good players have a much bigger chance to win than noobs compared to if we removed cashfarms/claws?

good players should know when to invest in cashfarms(if there is little pressure early and there is a low risk in making cashfarms) and good players should know when the best strategy is to waste gold early. same goes for wolfing. good wolfs should know when its best to go for 1hit, 2hits or cloaks. when you essentially force everyone to use their gold early(no reason to save gold), you remove the benefit of being able to evaluate/analyze the game. you are forcing everyone to use the same strategy.

its possible that this will FURTHER balance the difference in influence between great players and average players, and its possible that it will lead to less fun(you don't get to choose strategy/playstyle. you are forced to play a certain way).
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Shoop

avatar

Posts : 753
Join date : 2012-01-20

PostSubject: Re: Remove Cashfarm?   Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:06 am

The problem is that you define good players based on the current conditions. With cashfarms players who are good at riskmanagement and people who have maphack benefit. If we remove cashfarms people who are good at runtag, who have high massingspeed, who have good gameintelligence will benefit more compared to when we have it.

So it all depends on what you mean with a good sheeptagger.

Cashfarms also add a big factor of luck into sheeptag. It doesnt depend on how good you are at placing cashfarms, sometimes wolf find them for no reason other than luck. This is obviously negative for good players.

Also its definently not true that you will be more forced to play in a different way beacause we remove cashfarm. If anything the cashfarm forces you to play in a different way. If you want any chance to win you need to make banks, cover corners, get huge safemasses etc beacause later on in sheeptaggames the wolves will get insanley strong no matter what you do.

In a game without cashfarms the wolves dont have to get insanley strong and it will be possible even in lategame to survive without an insane amount of farms, but rather rely on runtag and massingspeed to win than hiding in upgraded farms with frosts and auras.

The cashfarm doesnt give you options, it forces you to play this way.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Effloresce

avatar

Posts : 257
Join date : 2012-01-20

PostSubject: Re: Remove Cashfarm?   Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:32 am

Shoop more trash ideas.

All your ideas are based on some minimalistic & socialistic version of sheep tag where all the joy is sucked out of the game.

FFS, stop trying to remove everything and come up with additions instead.

All games are progressively updated with new content in patches and so forth but NO Shoop just wants to remove everything. Fack borings.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Shoop

avatar

Posts : 753
Join date : 2012-01-20

PostSubject: Re: Remove Cashfarm?   Fri Jan 27, 2012 6:26 am

I want to remove the parts of sheeptag that makes it less entertaining and I want to find things we can add to make it more entertaining.

The ONLY reason I want to remove cashfarms is beacause it would make sheeptag more entertaining.

Cashfarm FORCES people into a way of playing which leads to boring games for both the sheep and wolves. By removing the cashfarm we would have more dynamic games where runtagskills, massingspeed and gameintelligence is far more rewarded. Cashfarm adds a luckfactor and rewards safemassing and maphacking, which leads to less reward for the skills mentioned earlier.

Your way of reasoning where we conserve all ideas, regardless if they are good or bad, is one of the biggest reasons the mapdevelopment have stagnated. Not only beacause the ideas themselves gets stopped by you and others with the same dogmatic reasoning, the ideology of never removing anything also leads to a very destructive fear about adding new things beacause people know there is a big group of people who will oppose remove anything we add to the map once they are added, regardless if they are good or not.

There is a reason you lose all debates about the map Sidey. You never argue about the actual topic. All your arguments are personal attacks and normative arguments based on dogmatic ideologies. Say something about what cashfarms adds to the map if you want to keep it. Not all change is bad. Infact, most people seem to agree the map is in desperate need of improvements.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Effloresce

avatar

Posts : 257
Join date : 2012-01-20

PostSubject: Re: Remove Cashfarm?   Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:19 pm

All other game developers balance things instead of removing them.

Sheep tag is a very shallow game and all you want to do is to remove things and strip the game of all of its characteristics.

We need more items, more skills, and greater depth in all departments. Not some minimalistic BULLSHIT.

Back to top Go down
View user profile
Shoop

avatar

Posts : 753
Join date : 2012-01-20

PostSubject: Re: Remove Cashfarm?   Fri Jan 27, 2012 11:42 pm

No, other game developers, at least the succesfull ones, are prepared to remove, add and change anything in their game in order to make it better.

Things like cashfarms and dogmatic reasoning such as yours are the main reasons sheep tag can be experienced as shallow. You refuse to analyze how something actually effect the map just to make it easy for yourself.

What we need is to keep our minds open, both to new things but also to change and remove what we currently have in sheep tag.

The sheep tag characteristics me and most people want are held back by cashfarm. A farm that almost seems designed to create boring games, a farm that robs people of the chance to use their runtagskills, their massingspeed and gameintelligence to dominate. You wrote 2 long posts but havent met any of my arguments ONCE.

You dont argue for whats best for sheep tag. You argue for a dogmatic reasoning in mapmaking based on the notion that nothing should ever be removed no matter how bad it is for the map. And even in a map where nothing should be removed that is a dangerous notion beacause it prevents us from testing out new features. People like you holds us back from adding new things to the map. People like you are the reason it took us over 1 year to test str beam and why we still havent been able to balance it so that people actually start using it.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Effloresce

avatar

Posts : 257
Join date : 2012-01-20

PostSubject: Re: Remove Cashfarm?   Sat Jan 28, 2012 2:23 am

I won't debate or engage with Shoop because he never gives up. If he gets knocked out 43 times he will bring the exact same argument for the next round and keep going until the other party tires. This is why nowadays no one cares to argue with him.

But aside from Shoop stawmanning me (i.e. balance instead of remove becomes "nothing should ever be removed"), I see no reason to remove them and there are other much more pressing concerns that require attention.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Shoop

avatar

Posts : 753
Join date : 2012-01-20

PostSubject: Re: Remove Cashfarm?   Sat Jan 28, 2012 2:50 am

I have presented several arguments to remove the cashfarm and you havent answered to a single one of them.

And also, noone here is arguing that the cashfarm is unbalanced. This isnt an issue about balancing the map, this is an issue about a farm which makes sheeptag more boring and forces people into a way of playing that reduces the chance to dominate through runtag, massingspeed and gameintelligence.

And no, its not a strawman. This is what you have said. You are not arguing that we shouldnt remove cashfarms beacause there are ways to balance it that will deal with the problems they cause. You are arguing that we shouldnt remove them beacause its always bad to remove things.

This kind of dogmatic reasoning prevents us from removing the bad aspects of sheeptag, but also makes us scared to try new things beacause people think once added they can never be removed.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Shoop

avatar

Posts : 753
Join date : 2012-01-20

PostSubject: Re: Remove Cashfarm?   Sun Jan 29, 2012 8:55 am

Make a new topic if you want to discuss that. This topic is about cashfarm.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Chakra



Posts : 357
Join date : 2012-01-21

PostSubject: Re: Remove Cashfarm?   Sun Jan 29, 2012 8:58 am

Why not just buff it's real range? Why remove useless things unless we can actually replace them? Are people actually wasting their gold on sentry farms?
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Shoop

avatar

Posts : 753
Join date : 2012-01-20

PostSubject: Re: Remove Cashfarm?   Sun Jan 29, 2012 9:27 am

Can the mods do their job and remove all OT posts?
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Madhatters

avatar

Posts : 81
Join date : 2012-01-21

PostSubject: Re: Remove Cashfarm?   Sun Jan 29, 2012 1:19 pm

How about we allow sentry farm to see over terrain/trees and keep the price at 20 gold. Would be actually useful then.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
e8lakes

avatar

Posts : 121
Join date : 2012-01-21

PostSubject: Re: Remove Cashfarm?   Sun Jan 29, 2012 2:05 pm

that would actually make sheep take the platform alot more often, can be interesting! Very Happy
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Sponsored content




PostSubject: Re: Remove Cashfarm?   

Back to top Go down
 
Remove Cashfarm?
View previous topic View next topic Back to top 
Page 1 of 1
 Similar topics
-
» Frost covers. Should I remove them?
» Do I have to remove the grass?
» tomato blossoms remove, or..
» Frozen Tomatoes
» I know what a hornworm is now

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
The STC Forum :: Community Discussion-
Jump to: